• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Atoll DAC200 Signature - Review & Measurements (DAC)

Talisman

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Messages
897
Likes
2,546
Location
Milano Italy
I realize this is a fixed pattern. When something extremely expensive and well-regarded by the audiophile community is measured as terribly substandard, some "new member" champion of justice always shows up and tells us how we "didn't listen to it" and that perhaps the reviewer wasn't honest and that he he heard purposely resting on depolarized rocks in Brunei and was finally able to hear that in a version of Petrucci's Flight of the Bumblebee he had a slightly cracked forefinger on his left hand, and this can only be understood with this Dac!
 
Last edited:

boXem

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Joined
Jun 19, 2019
Messages
2,014
Likes
4,852
Location
Europe
i suspect that companies that are the thin edge of the wedge, even though they may be technically competant, are very resistant to takeover by huge multinationals, unless your product has the 'zeitgeist' (McIntosh has the 'zeitgeist')

does anyone BIG want to buy atoll? or diavelet? i dont want to pick on the french but if your product isnt likely to have a mass market audience OR have some synergies with an existing product line then why would a conglomo want you?
Atoll and Devialet do not play on the same court. One is a small company mainly selling local, the other is an industrial reality selling worldwide with one of the richest men sitting at it's board.
 
OP
VintageFlanker

VintageFlanker

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,940
Likes
19,692
Location
Paris
I realize this is a fixed pattern. When something extremely expensive and well-regarded by the audiophile community is measured as terribly substandard, some "new member" champion of justice always shows up and tells us how we "didn't listen to him" and that perhaps the reviewer wasn't honest and that he he heard purposely resting on depolarized rocks in Brunei and was finally able to hear that in a version of Petrucci's Flight of the Bumblebee he had a slightly cracked forefinger on his left hand, and this can only be understood with this Dac!
Flak from some frustrated owners was to be expected, indeed. Honestly I could not care less (apart from one specific person, questioning my "links" or "honestly"... this, I cannot override). I am still very interested in some reactions/answers by the company, tho. ;)


does anyone BIG want to buy atoll? or diavelet?
FYI, Devialet is already BIG. 200-249 employees. Growing >100M€ revenue. And Xavier Niel as one of the shareholder...
why would a conglomo want you?
Why would a local HiFi company want that to begin with?
i suspect that companies that are the thin edge of the wedge, even though they may be technically competant, are very resistant to takeover by huge multinationals
Yep they are. So what?
 
Last edited:

Geert

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
1,938
Likes
3,526
Although Atoll may target a house "sound signature", they don't really brag about it, unless it's what they simply call "high-end" o_O

You are probably right on your comment about byproduct of the design of the analogue stage: discrete output stages with NO feedback...

View attachment 282888

Discreet output stage, no feedback and class A. According to audiophile myths these are key ingredients to make magic happen, leading to a level of performance that can't be captured by measurements. They know what they're doing at Atoll
 

BR52

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 3, 2021
Messages
570
Likes
491
Location
Germany
Discreet output stage, no feedback and class A. According to audiophile myths these are key ingredients to make magic happen, leading to a level of performance that can't be captured by measurements. They know what they're doing at Atoll
Are you sure, see the miss match between measurements and advertising data.? Advertising data can have legal consequences. Customer protection. Maybe the tested unit is defect. A response from the manufacturer would explain a lot.
 

JSmith

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Messages
5,153
Likes
13,218
Location
Algol Perseus
Are you sure, see the miss match between measurements and advertising data.?
Yep... see here. It seems they're just quoting the max spec's for the ES9028PRO and implying that is their spec.
Maybe the tested unit is defect.
I highly doubt it with a DAC and as others have posted their other products measure poorly too.
A response from the manufacturer would explain a lot.
Yes, in fact it would be even better if they worked with ASR members to improve their products... however it seems they want them to be like this.


JSmith
 

Geert

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
1,938
Likes
3,526
Maybe the tested unit is defect.

They probably can never meet the published specs with that output topology, and from what we know from measurements of their other products they don't seem to target that level of specs.

Advertising data can have legal consequences.

'Laissez faire", no stress.
 
Last edited:

BR52

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 3, 2021
Messages
570
Likes
491
Location
Germany
They probably can never meet the published specs with that output topology, and from what we know from measurements of their other products they don't seem to target that level of specs.



'Laissez faire", no stress.
They’re data advertising the chip not the system now I understand.;)
 

Scytales

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 17, 2020
Messages
136
Likes
191
Location
France
Are you sure, see the miss match between measurements and advertising data.? Advertising data can have legal consequences. Customer protection.
Spot on. Especially in France, where misleading commercial practices are criminal infringements.
 
Last edited:
OP
VintageFlanker

VintageFlanker

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,940
Likes
19,692
Location
Paris
Spot on. Especially in France, where misleading commercial practices are criminal infringements
Not exactly "criminal" (délictueux, plutôt ;)), but yes, it could be characterized as "false advertising". At least, if proved to be done on purpose.

I really hope that it is not the case... If ever they would not have published any specs, I would have criticized the performance anyway, but unmatched specs remain my biggest concerns here.
 

Scytales

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 17, 2020
Messages
136
Likes
191
Location
France
Not exactly "criminal" (délictueux, plutôt ;)), but yes, it could be characterized as "false advertising".

I'm perfectly aware that in the French legal system, in which there are three levels of offenses (from the less severe to the most: "une contravention", "un délit" et "un crime"), misleading commercial practices are classified as "un délit" (Article L. 121-2 du code de la consommation), but this distinction is, from the best of my knowledge, unknown in the common law system. Hence the expression I used on this English speaking forum. ;)
 

Ra1zel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jul 6, 2021
Messages
531
Likes
1,048
Location
Poland
I remember few years ago taking on of their CD players home for testing and genuinely it was the only CD player that sounded different and bad to me ever for the first time, if that's the DAC that was there I'm no longer surprised. Actually high chance that it was even worse since it was older model not sure if I remember correctly but based on ES9018.

Impressive that such piece of crap is also pretty popular in germany and poland.
 

horias2000

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 7, 2021
Messages
157
Likes
203
Location
Cluj-Napoca, Romania
I remember few years ago taking on of their CD players home for testing and genuinely it was the only CD player that sounded different and bad to me ever for the first time, if that's the DAC that was there I'm no longer surprised. Actually high chance that it was even worse since it was older model not sure if I remember correctly but based on ES9018.

Impressive that such piece of crap is also pretty popular in germany and poland.
I don't think it has anything to do with the DAC chip itself. The ES9018 was state of the art when it was released and its performance is still relevant today. Most probably the problem lays after the DAC ic, in the analog section.
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
Why do we want to listen to objectively judge the unit?
Not necessarily the job for this review, and not asking Vintage Flaker to do it but me personally I'd be interested to know if objectively this sound as bad as it looks. I think we still have a long way to go in the actual real world assessment of what really matter in measured fidelity and what makes no difference or differences that don't translate in actual real deficit to the enjoyment of music. I mean, me I know, objectively, that the little BT speaker I own sounds like crap. It's obvious. I know that 64 kbps mp3 sounds like crap, it's obvious. This? I don't know? Does it? I think it's interesting, for me at least we just have some very theoretical transparency thresholds, but what if manufacturers are chasing performance metrics that objectively in real world don't matter at all?
I am not trying to say here that there something magical with distortion or that it's an ok product or that it's ok to falsify specs. I also agree that a listening assessment is fundamentally flawed, but if no one ever get a shot at it, there's a big empty field to explore I feel.
Blind listening studies are very sparse, little conclusive, are about tiny difference spotting. It is interesting to me that something very flawed can sound good to one's ears. I mean, we all know bad, but would I hate the sound of this? I don't know.
 

BR52

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 3, 2021
Messages
570
Likes
491
Location
Germany
I remember few years ago taking on of their CD players home for testing and genuinely it was the only CD player that sounded different and bad to me ever for the first time, if that's the DAC that was there I'm no longer surprised. Actually high chance that it was even worse since it was older model not sure if I remember correctly but based on ES9018.

Impressive that such piece of crap is also pretty popular in germany and poland.
If you read the German Audio Press, it's no surprise. Because they need any manufacturer to fill their polished Magazines with prosaic content on a monthly basis, measurement data play a not so significant role. Most of their customers can't deal with it.
 

Graham849

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 14, 2022
Messages
220
Likes
200
Location
Australia
And along comes Denon DNP-2000NE, with great promise....
 

horias2000

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 7, 2021
Messages
157
Likes
203
Location
Cluj-Napoca, Romania
Not necessarily the job for this review, and not asking Vintage Flaker to do it but me personally I'd be interested to know if objectively this sound as bad as it looks. I think we still have a long way to go in the actual real world assessment of what really matter in measured fidelity and what makes no difference or differences that don't translate in actual real deficit to the enjoyment of music. I mean, me I know, objectively, that the little BT speaker I own sounds like crap. It's obvious. I know that 64 kbps mp3 sounds like crap, it's obvious. This? I don't know? Does it? I think it's interesting, for me at least we just have some very theoretical transparency thresholds, but what if manufacturers are chasing performance metrics that objectively in real world don't matter at all?
I am not trying to say here that there something magical with distortion or that it's an ok product or that it's ok to falsify specs. I also agree that a listening assessment is fundamentally flawed, but if no one ever get a shot at it, there's a big empty field to explore I feel.
Blind listening studies are very sparse, little conclusive, are about tiny difference spotting. It is interesting to me that something very flawed can sound good to one's ears. I mean, we all know bad, but would I hate the sound of this? I don't know.
I agree that at some point, we no longer hear the difference between good and very good equipment. And that going for a THD+N of -120dB might bee a moot point as it will sound as good as -90dB. My personal opinion is that anything better than -80dB is good and it is very difficult to spot a difference between -80dB and -100dB (at least for me). But being an engineer, I can't swallow the marketing bullshit and pay a lot more for something that is a lot worse. I want my equipment to add nothing to the music. Musical instrument have harmonics too and I want to be able to hear the original music and not what the DAC or the amp adds to it. An audio equipment should only do it's main purpose and not add or take away anything to/from the music. That being said, we need to look at the whole picture and realize that speakers (or headphones) will contribute the most to THD (0.1% to 1%). But this does not mean we should accept equipment that distorts even more. THD is additive and it will add from all the pieces in the equipment. Getting back to this DAC, I can say almost certain that you will hear the distortion added. I had a similar discussion with somebody regarding to tube amps. That person was saying that you can actually hear more of the music with his tube amp and that he could hear details that were not present with the solid state amp. And it was true. I tried explaining that what he was hearing were actually the harmonics generated by the amp and not something that is in the recording. I even measured the amp and it had a THD of 0.5% at 1W and I tried explaining that he is hearing the amp and not the recording but I wasn't successful . He kept insisting that the tube amp was extracting more detail from the recording.
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
I agree that at some point, we no longer hear the difference between good and very good equipment. And that going for a THD+N of -120dB might bee a moot point as it will sound as good as -90dB. My personal opinion is that anything better than -80dB is good and it is very difficult to spot a difference between -80dB and -100dB (at least for me). But being an engineer, I can't swallow the marketing bullshit and pay a lot more for something that is a lot worse. I want my equipment to add nothing to the music. Musical instrument have harmonics too and I want to be able to hear the original music and not what the DAC or the amp adds to it. An audio equipment should only do it's main purpose and not add or take away anything to/from the music. That being said, we need to look at the whole picture and realize that speakers (or headphones) will contribute the most to THD (0.1% to 1%). But this does not mean we should accept equipment that distorts even more. THD is additive and it will add from all the pieces in the equipment. Getting back to this DAC, I can say almost certain that you will hear the distortion added. I had a similar discussion with somebody regarding to tube amps. That person was saying that you can actually hear more of the music with his tube amp and that he could hear details that were not present with the solid state amp. And it was true. I tried explaining that what he was hearing were actually the harmonics generated by the amp and not something that is in the recording. I even measured the amp and it had a THD of 0.5% at 1W and I tried explaining that he is hearing the amp and not the recording but I wasn't successful . He kept insisting that the tube amp was extracting more detail from the recording.
Sure, he was misled. Now does it matter? I know and you know that his amp is flawed. That it's audible. But it sounds good to him. That's interesting to me. My BT speaker don't sound good to anybody.
If you did not know that it was a tube amp, did not hear the recording before, and were not aware of the distortion spec on this amp, would you have disliked it automatically? That's a large discussion I know and probably outside the scope and topic of this review.
 

BR52

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 3, 2021
Messages
570
Likes
491
Location
Germany
Sure, he was misled. Now does it matter? I know and you know that his amp is flawed. That it's audible. But it sounds good to him. That's interesting to me. My BT speaker don't sound good to anybody.
If you did not know that it was a tube amp, did not hear the recording before, and were not aware of the distortion spec on this amp, would you have disliked it automatically? That's a large discussion I know and probably outside the scope and topic of this review.
You are right, it's a topic on its one.
The question is, is a music reproduction system a music instrument or does it "only" reproduce without any ad on.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom