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Atma-Sphere Class D GaNFET Amplifiers

Zoso69

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Goryu,
I believe Mr. Karsten responded directly to you back in October on the matter of pricing.

"Its cost is based on a formula rather than what the market will bear".

Every manufacturer sets their pricing based on their own constraints (formula). If the products aren't well received by the market they won't stay in business very long. Simple as that. Atma Sphere has been around a long time, which speaks for itself on the matter of pricing and perceived "value". Of course time will tell with their new Class D offering.

Just as music is a matter of personal taste, so is the matter of audio equipment and it's "value" relative to our means. We each determine what sounds "best" to us, and how much we choose to spend on our gear. It seems a bit ridiculous arguing with someone whether their preference for tubes or solid state is "better" than the other. By the same token I think it's silly arguing with anyone about the price of their equipment. To each his own.
 

luisma

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That a rather novel pricing mechanism that I don't think I have ever heard before. Kind of like a new car manufacturer charging $400,000 for their new sports car because they saw a $600,000 Ferrari, lol.
Just an observation, you clearly misunderstood what he wrote. When he says "We figured if Technics could sell a 150Watt class D for $18,000 that we'd be OK" the "we'd be OK" clearly means that after pricing parts, materials and labor (or whatever method he uses) his amps in pricing comparison with the competition they would be ok in terms of pricing.
 

goryu

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Goryu,
I believe Mr. Karsten responded directly to you back in October on the matter of pricing.

"Its cost is based on a formula rather than what the market will bear".

Every manufacturer sets their pricing based on their own constraints (formula). If the products aren't well received by the market they won't stay in business very long. Simple as that. Atma Sphere has been around a long time, which speaks for itself on the matter of pricing and perceived "value". Of course time will tell with their new Class D offering.

Just as music is a matter of personal taste, so is the matter of audio equipment and it's "value" relative to our means. We each determine what sounds "best" to us, and how much we choose to spend on our gear. It seems a bit ridiculous arguing with someone whether their preference for tubes or solid state is "better" than the other. By the same token I think it's silly arguing with anyone about the price of their equipment. To each his own.


He brought up Technics, not me...

Yes, time will tell.

I am not arguing, I am simply pointing out that there is a market full of class d amps at pricing as much as 1/5 the cost with better performance. Indeed, it's a personal decision. Some people are happy to spend extra, a lot extra, for things which have little or no impact on the sonic performance of an amplifier. To each his own.
 

atmasphere

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I suppose one must define "high end amplifier".
I think if you sit back and think about it, you'll find that cost has nothing to do with what is 'high end'. Intention is what drives it; cost is always secondary. For example, we found that using a charge pump to run the lower voltage circuits in the amp to be noisier. We decided to use a switching power converter instead, which was lower noise but also more expensive. This was done to reduce the noise of the amp and cost was not a consideration.

It works the other way too. Tandy Corporation bought out Linaeum just so they could get their tweeter technology to use on a $250.00 loudspeaker. That speaker got good comments in the high end press. That was done out of intention- cost had nothing to do with it.
 

goryu

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Just an observation, you clearly misunderstood what he wrote. When he says "We figured if Technics could sell a 150Watt class D for $18,000 that we'd be OK" the "we'd be OK" clearly means that after pricing parts, materials and labor (or whatever method he uses) his amps in pricing comparison with the competition they would be ok in terms of pricing.

That's another interpretation. I'm not a mind reader.
 

goryu

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I think if you sit back and think about it, you'll find that cost has nothing to do with what is 'high end'. Intention is what drives it; cost is always secondary. For example, we found that using a charge pump to run the lower voltage circuits in the amp to be noisier. We decided to use a switching power converter instead, which was lower noise but also more expensive. This was done to reduce the noise of the amp and cost was not a consideration.

It works the other way too. Tandy Corporation bought out Linaeum just so they could get their tweeter technology to use on a $250.00 loudspeaker. That speaker got good comments in the high end press. That was done out of intention- cost had nothing to do with it.

I have always liked to believe that "high end" referred to performance. Sadly, that is not always necessarily true as we see plenty of expensive products tarted up in fancy cases with all sorts of snake oil that measure worse than products costing a fraction of the price. Many people associate fancy cases and heavy amps with better performance and longevity when we know, thanks to the efforts of people like those who run this site that that is not always the truth.
 

DonH56

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I should hope so yet from his answer it seemed a reasonable analogy.

I suppose one must define "high end amplifier". I would like to think performance enters into the definition and that there is some correlation between price and performance. When I see various class d amps with modules by Hypex, Purifi, or Orchard, among others, selling for as little as 1/5 the price of the Atmas amp, yet having superior performance, I wonder exactly what "high end" might mean.
So would many of us. But measurements often say otherwise. If I use the phrase "high-end" anything then IME the first assumption is that it is expensive, and then hopefully has quality commensurate with cost. I think there are a lot of products (audio and otherwise) that may not live up to the "quality" aspect if we include performance. At some point it is mostly preference.

In their defense, many "high-end" products are not mass-produced, and sold in small quantity, so it takes much higher retail pricing to support their R&D and manufacturing costs. They may or may not meet your definition of high performance, but the realities of development and production costs do enter into their pricing. Value is in the eye of the beholder; if Atmas-Sphere's class-D amplifier adds years to its lifetime through original higher build quality and reliability, upgrades, and support over time it may be a better value over time. It would be interesting to see more measurements of the amplifier but I think they are swamped just filling orders, no extras for review samples.

From the very beginning of this thread you have repeatedly made your point that you do not believe this amplifier offers the performance and value you desire. I think folk "get it".
 

goryu

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I don't see what GaN gets you at the switching frequencies required for audio. Current Si MOSFETs handle that quite well.
Neither do many others. It does make for good marketing copy though...
 

goryu

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So would many of us. But measurements often say otherwise.


It would be interesting to see more measurements of the amplifier but I think they are swamped just filling orders, no extras for review samples.

Exactly, as I have mentioned.


If this amp set some new bar for the art, no doubt there would be a review sample for measurement already out. The manufacturer refuses to release the measurements a la Hypex and others and has said plainly that it doesn't measure as well. Thus, it would appear that they simply don't want to make anything other than the limited specs on their website available.
 
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DonH56

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I don't see what GaN gets you at the switching frequencies required for audio. Current Si MOSFETs handle that quite well.
Same thing as for car (etc.) battery chargers, SMPS modules, transfer and control switches for solar panels and other electrical systems, and so forth. GaN offers greater switching speed with less parasitic charge storage and lower "on" resistance, leading to less hysteresis (dead time, lower distortion) and greater efficiency (lower loss in the transistors, less heat, etc.) The wealth of alternatives to basic Si MOSFETs for low-frequency (say ~1 MHz) power circuits is a testament to how desirable better devices are to the designers and producers of such products. I get a constant stream of engineering articles about the need and what designers are looking for in things like EV battery chargers and electrical systems, flight and space hardware, computer hardware, lighting, and so forth. The biggest advantage Si MOSFETs have is that they are cheap and fairly easy to make but technically many other devices are superior.
 

atmasphere

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That's another interpretation. I'm not a mind reader.
Luis got it right. Technics saw a market for a class D that barely made any more power than ours (our amp clips at 125Watts) and was over 3X more expensive, then we figured we could sell a better performing amp and do just fine in our market. Better performing in this case has to do with Technics advertising their amp as a zero feedback design, which means that frequency response would be variable with load, and higher distortion as well. Our amp is load invariant and uses 37dB of feedback.

In practice the class D became our best selling entry ever, outselling all our other products put together. All of our runs have been pre-sold. The more we seem to get out in the field it seems the faster they sell.
I don't see what GaN gets you at the switching frequencies required for audio. Current Si MOSFETs handle that quite well.
GaNFETs have the advantage of faster switching speeds and lower On resistance than MOSFETs. The lower On resistance means less in the way of heatsinks; for example if only limited to 50 Watts our module does not even need a heatsink. The switching speed has to do with how steep the on or off slope of the switching waveform is. The steeper the better, since that translates directly to lower distortion. IME the big advantage is reduced inductive parasitics so less troubles with noise at crazy frequencies- its easier to meet FCC part 15 and EU directives. Lower noise is helpful with other parts of the system since radiated noise can mess with other audio equipment, in particular digital equipment.
 

Zoso69

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Goryu,

In terms of "performance", one can test, measure, and otherwise observe various data points of one piece of gear and compare it to another and convince ourselves the better performing one will always best the former.

But this is sonic alchemy and what we hear is the sum of the parts in our rig. It's entirely possible that a piece of gear with the inferior performing measurements in one category like impedance, harmonic distortion, or power output, etc. etc., sounds better in one rig than with the superior performing piece of gear in the same system.

I'm sure their are countless stories of people on this forum who've swapped out their gear with what on paper should have delivered superior performance based on specs/measurements, only to find out the synergy just didn't workout that way. And at the end of the day we each make that determination based on personal taste.

Your insistence that "I am simply pointing out that there is a market full of class d amps at pricing as much as 1/5 the cost with better performance amplifier" just doesn't tell the whole story.

I know this sounds like blasphemy to the objectivists in the room, but I'm really looking forward to hearing from people who've made the decision to add these mono's to their rig and what their subjective experiences are with them.

Calling in, not calling out.
 

egellings

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Same thing as for car (etc.) battery chargers, SMPS modules, transfer and control switches for solar panels and other electrical systems, and so forth. GaN offers greater switching speed with less parasitic charge storage and lower "on" resistance, leading to less hysteresis (dead time, lower distortion) and greater efficiency (lower loss in the transistors, less heat, etc.) The wealth of alternatives to basic Si MOSFETs for low-frequency (say ~1 MHz) power circuits is a testament to how desirable better devices are to the designers and producers of such products. I get a constant stream of engineering articles about the need and what designers are looking for in things like EV battery chargers and electrical systems, flight and space hardware, computer hardware, lighting, and so forth. The biggest advantage Si MOSFETs have is that they are cheap and fairly easy to make but technically many other devices are superior.
That is true, but normal home audio benefits little for such improvements. The current types of Si MOSFET are completely adequate for that.
 

goryu

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That is true, but normal home audio benefits little for such improvements. The current types of Si MOSFET are completely adequate for that.

That's what Bruno Putzeys, the designer of the UCD, Ncore, and Purifi class d amps has said as well, I quoted his comments on the GaN versus Si fet situation earlier in this thread I believe.
 

goryu

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Goryu,

In terms of "performance", one can test, measure, and otherwise observe various data points of one piece of gear and compare it to another and convince ourselves the better performing one will always best the former.

But this is sonic alchemy and what we hear is the sum of the parts in our rig. It's entirely possible that a piece of gear with the inferior performing measurements in one category like impedance, harmonic distortion, or power output, etc. etc., sounds better in one rig than with the superior performing piece of gear in the same system.

I'm sure their are countless stories of people on this forum who've swapped out their gear with what on paper should have delivered superior performance based on specs/measurements, only to find out the synergy just didn't workout that way. And at the end of the day we each make that determination based on personal taste.

Your insistence that "I am simply pointing out that there is a market full of class d amps at pricing as much as 1/5 the cost with better performance amplifier" just doesn't tell the whole story.

I know this sounds like blasphemy to the objectivists in the room, but I'm really looking forward to hearing from people who've made the decision to add these mono's to their rig and what their subjective experiences are with them.

Calling in, not calling out.


No doubt certain performance aspects of an amp can influence compatibility with other components- I wouldn't for example, want a 150 watt amp with a set of large Magnepan's. Nor would I want an amp no stable into 2 ohm or less loads with certain speakers. Surely a full suite of measurements aids in determining how well an amp can be expected to "play" within one's system.

I personally couldn't care less what others think of this amp or any other for that matter for exactly the reason you have mentioned- different results in different systems- but also because tastes and perceptions differ. What matters to me is how it sounds in my room. There is no accounting for taste and there is no reason to expect an amp with worse measurements to perform better than one that is superior provided there are no basic incompatibilities with the other equipment. Science, not alchemy.

I like to use measurements to determine if an amp is compatible with my system and needs. I also like to winnow my candidates by performance- I would rather have an amp with distortion at or below audibility versus one with lessor performance, all else equal, or nearly equal at 1/5 the price. To me, paying all that extra for non-sonic enhancements is a non-starter.

I see you have the Atmasphere amp on order. Not surprised you would therefore think there is "more to the story".
 
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atmasphere

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To me, paying extra for non-sonic enhancing bling is a non-starter.
I felt that way for years. For that reason we've always kept our construction on the modest side- using vintage idioms with the tube gear since vintage gear has always been collectable, it was a good way to build the line. The construction of the class D follows those design techniques (although not the vintage part). Its also built to lmatch our preamps. Dealers like that sort of thing due to something called 'WAF' (Wife Acceptance Factor). It cost only slightly more to make the panels 1/4" instead of 3/16 or 1/8" and I can tell you that we'd be seeing far more complaints had we gone in that direction (our competition sees nothing wrong with 1/2" think panels...). As it is we really only have one complaint in that department (you). So overall that's a win- one of the least expensive amps we make and far more acceptance in the general market.
 

goryu

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I felt that way for years. For that reason we've always kept our construction on the modest side- using vintage idioms with the tube gear since vintage gear has always been collectable, it was a good way to build the line. The construction of the class D follows those design techniques (although not the vintage part). Its also built to lmatch our preamps. Dealers like that sort of thing due to something called 'WAF' (Wife Acceptance Factor). It cost only slightly more to make the panels 1/4" instead of 3/16 or 1/8" and I can tell you that we'd be seeing far more complaints had we gone in that direction (our competition sees nothing wrong with 1/2" think panels...). As it is we really only have one complaint in that department (you). So overall that's a win- one of the least expensive amps we make and far more acceptance in the general market.

No doubt your market likes paying extra for things that don't necessarily improve the sonics but give a feeling of "quality". As I said, some think a fancy case and weight are worth paying (dearly) for...Common to sell on margin or volume. I would suspect you are in the former camp and doubt you are selling in the volumes many who offer their class d amps here for a fraction the price are...It takes all kinds, as they say. I must say though that I applaud people like Bruno Putzeys who is providing state of the art performance at a fraction of what it has traditionally cost, allowing the masses as it were, to have access to great sound, rather than just the well heeled.
 

atmasphere

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No doubt your market likes paying extra for things that don't necessarily improve the sonics but give a feeling of "quality". As I said, some think a fancy case and weight are worth paying (dearly) for...Common to sell on margin or volume. I would suspect you are in the former camp and doubt you are selling in the volumes many who offer their class d amps here for a fraction the price are...It takes all kinds, as they say.
(emphasis added) You're starting to get the picture. ARC is here in my town and their stuff is way more expensive than ours and to the best I can sort out does not perform as well and never has. If you want to know who is my competition and who is our market, that's a good example. Conrad Johnson is another. When people pay for that kind of stuff to sit in their living room it has to look nice whether its on or off.

If you live alone in your mom's basement the cheaper stuff is fine. But when you have a nice house, a car that cost more than my shop, you don't put up with that. It has to look nice; it can't fake it and it has to be durable (people that live in nice places are often harder to get to so shipping is always a concern). Its not overbuilt to be heavy. Its simply built so it has understated elegance. I know that might be hard to understand. Yet our prices are a lot cheaper than our competition; cheap enough that by most high end standards its really pretty affordable.
 
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