ATC speakers / Monitors

[bo_knows]

I like @Alpha Audio listening tests and their subjective explanations of what they hear, and the fact that they try to avoid ranking the speakers because everyone has different tastes when it comes to sound. I think that got much to do with the fact that there are no perfect speakers out there and all speakers have their strong points and their weak points, and we all as individual listeners appreciate and rank these different aspects differently, we can accept some weaknesses of the speakers if some other sound aspects align better with our individual taste.

When the "listening panel" at Alpha Audio explains what sound aspects they appreciate about the ATC speaker in the following video I completely understand what they mean. The strong points of ATC speakers are that they can handle dense and complex music mixes without ever losing it, and they reproduce the layering of the different sound objects in the mix in a way that many other speakers fail to do. ATC speakers surely have their weaknesses, but for some of us a listener who rank other sound aspects higher, ATC speakers tick the overall sound extremely well.

This is the last of 3 long videos in a listening test they did of stand-mount speakers for the price of around 2500€. I didn't pay that much attention to the actual listening to the speakers (because of the obvious downfalls of such a test over a Youtube video) and I did fast-forward the videos for those parts. But it's interesting to hear their take on how they perceive the sound of the different speakers in the same environment, and hear what they like and don't like about the sound aspects of the different speakers. I think that is both interesting and entertaining at the same time.

The KEF R3 Meta seems to have some ups and downs, and I got intrigued to hear some of the Audio Physic speakers sometimes which I think would suit my taste.

Pass Labs not good enough to push a small bookshelf and control a 6-inch woofer?
Huge difference in sound between amplifiers!?
KEF R3 Meta sounds like it's out of phase and mellow when Amir shows that the speaker could sound bright.
Cables and network switches make difference in their test.
Should I continue or should I stop here?

 

[goat76]

Pass Labs not good enough to push a small bookshelf and control a 6-inch woofer?
Huge difference in sound between amplifiers!?
KEF R3 Meta sounds like it's out of phase and mellow when Amir shows that the speaker could sound bright.
Cables and network switches make difference in their test.
Should I continue or should I stop here?

You can continue if you want to. I look at it from an entertainment view and find it interesting to hear the participating people's view of how they subjectively hear the speakers, within the same system and room. It's not more than that.

I hope @Alpha Audio continue in the same way they are doing it now, I like watching their listening sessions and their take on what they hear.

 

[bo_knows]

You can continue if you want to. I look at it from an entertainment view and find it interesting to hear the participating people's view of how they subjectively hear the speakers, within the same system and room. It's not more than that.

I hope @Alpha Audio continue in the same way they are doing it now, I like watching their listening sessions and their take on what they hear.

I just stopped being ignorant and actually listen for a few seconds between KEF 3 Meta and ATC SM 11 takes via my Sennheiser HD660. On the first entry of Beethoven's Symphony No.7 (25:38 vs 2:24:38) going back and forth and paying attention to the cellos, to my ears KEF sounds "better".
It's a 3-way vs 2-way speaker comparison.
And also notice that Jaap said that R stands for reference.

 

[bo_knows]

You can continue if you want to. I look at it from an entertainment view and find it interesting to hear the participating people's view of how they subjectively hear the speakers, within the same system and room. It's not more than that.

I hope @Alpha Audio continue in the same way they are doing it now, I like watching their listening sessions and their take on what they hear.

Yes, agree, they are entertaining, and put a lot of effort into making those videos. I just question some things after spending a good amount of time on THIS forum and learning from Amir and other members here.

 

[goat76]

I just stopped being ignorant and actually listen for a few seconds between KEF 3 Meta and ATC SM 11 takes via my Sennheiser HD660. On the first entry of Beethoven's Symphony No.7 (25:38 vs 2:24:38) going back and forth and paying attention to the cellos, to my ears KEF sounds "better".
And also notice that Jaap said that R stands for reference.

I barely listened to the sound demos and did fast-forward most of the time to the comments. And just so you know, they made a mistake with the recording of the ATC speaker and it ended up in mono compared to the other speakers that are in stereo.

Even if the recordings they did are quite good, you can’t make any big judgments of what you hear over a Youtube video.

 

[bo_knows]

I barely listened to the sound demos and did fast-forward most of the time to the comments. And just so you know, they made a mistake with the recording of the ATC speaker and it ended up in mono compared to the other speakers that are in stereo.

LOL, ok now that makes sense. It's not easy to conduct those experiments and we all know, things are about to go wrong. What was amusing to me is that ONLY one guy was sitting in the sweet spot and most of the time they spent on the laptops. The most vocal guy that was sitting to the left (in the video but to the right inside the room) was basically listening to ONE speaker ON AXIS (KEF R 3) which is I assure you not the best way to listen to those speakers and he found them mellow with the bass which is not able to keep up with uni-q. These speakers are not made by some garage home DIY builder but by engineers that have 60 years of tradition and are leaders in passive speaker design. Doesn't that make you question things?

 

[Deleted member 57422]

The ATC speaker was not meant to be part of this test from the beginning but two other brands didn't send in their speaker, as I understand it. Alpha Audio then contacted ATC to get at least one more speaker for the test, but as the SCM19 was too expensive for the price point of the test they decided to go with the smaller SCM11 and ATC had no problem with that.

I don't really understand why you think the SCM11 shouldn't be in the test. In the end, 3 out of 4 guys choose it as their favorite over the KEF R3 Meta, the Elac Vela BS403, and the Monitor Audio Gold 100 so it was clearly at the same level as the other speakers in the test (and still one of the cheaper ones as well).

I was on the verge of buying a set of SCM40 for their low end extension compared to the SCM20 but I changed my mind at the last minute and went SCM20.

I was wondering how someone was feeding them as there is 6 binding post in the back and I didn't have the budget to buy myself 3 different set of stereo amps.

So I chose the SCM20.

I first thought about buying the PSL Pro MK2 version but finally went down the SCM20 SL version. The one made custom for US customers and distributed by Transaudio group.

Those with the DMAX and the Aeon 2 makes for a great set of tools to judge it all around. My Aeon 2 being the ones that go the lowest and gives me reliable info from 35hz at +/- 6db until 20khz, I sometime wonder what would the SCM40 rendering be like. The mid lows on my APS Aeon 2 are the weak point but seeing the crossover point at 380hz on the 40's I wonder how they really translate down there.

I guess I will never know haha.

 

[goat76]

I was on the verge of buying a set of SCM40 for their low end extension compared to the SCM20 but I changed my mind at the last minute and went SCM20.

I was wondering how someone was feeding them as there is 6 binding post in the back and I didn't have the budget to buy myself 3 different set of stereo amps.

So I chose the SCM20.

I first thought about buying the PSL Pro MK2 version but finally went down the SCM20 SL version. The one made custom for US customers and distributed by Transaudio group.

Those with the DMAX and the Aeon 2 makes for a great set of tools to judge it all around. My Aeon 2 being the ones that go the lowest and gives me reliable info from 35hz at +/- 6db until 20khz, I sometime wonder what would the SCM40 rendering be like. The mid lows on my APS Aeon 2 are the weak point but seeing the crossover point at 380hz on the 40's I wonder how they really translate down there.

I guess I will never know haha.

I have always preferred floor standing speakers but I still use subwoofers to extend the bass down to 20 Hz. I have two subwoofers with my SCM40s and I love the full range sound that gives me.

 

[Deleted member 57422]

I have always preferred floor standing speakers but I still use subwoofers to extend the bass down to 20 Hz. I have two subwoofers with my SCM40s and I love the full range sound that gives me.

Are you using 3 set of stereo amps to feed them or 6 mono block ?

 

[Tovarich007]

I was on the verge of buying a set of SCM40 for their low end extension compared to the SCM20 but I changed my mind at the last minute and went SCM20.

I was wondering how someone was feeding them as there is 6 binding post in the back and I didn't have the budget to buy myself 3 different set of stereo amps.

So I chose the SCM20.

I first thought about buying the PSL Pro MK2 version but finally went down the SCM20 SL version. The one made custom for US customers and distributed by Transaudio group.

Those with the DMAX and the Aeon 2 makes for a great set of tools to judge it all around. My Aeon 2 being the ones that go the lowest and gives me reliable info from 35hz at +/- 6db until 20khz, I sometime wonder what would the SCM40 rendering be like. The mid lows on my APS Aeon 2 are the weak point but seeing the crossover point at 380hz on the 40's I wonder how they really translate down there.

I guess I will never know haha.

Compare the sound from a headphone and from a speaker is a difficult task, not to say an impossible or artificial one. On a phone, you don't have room modes, and soundstage is quite different, much more open with speakers.

 

[goat76]

LOL, ok now that makes sense. It's not easy to conduct those experiments and we all know, things are about to go wrong. What was amusing to me is that ONLY one guy was sitting in the sweet spot and most of the time they spent on the laptops. The most vocal guy that was sitting to the left (in the video but to the right inside the room) was basically listening to ONE speaker ON AXIS (KEF R 3) which is I assure you not the best way to listen to those speakers and he found them mellow with the bass which is not able to keep up with uni-q. These speakers are not made by some garage home DIY builder but by engineers that have 60 years of tradition and are leaders in passive speaker design. Doesn't that make you question things?

The two guys on the sofa are both sitting off-center, I saw that the guy you mentioned was leaning in many times to hear an accurate stereo image.

That's the downside of listening tests with more than one person, but as I understand it, that was the case with the listening tests Harman did as well.

I’m not surprised by the possibility of timing problems with the KEF speaker, but the guy who finds the timing off is possibly more sensitive to that effect. It's a possibility.

 

[goat76]

Are you using 3 set of stereo amps to feed them or 6 mono block ?

No, I just use a single-ended amp and the binding post on the speaker has a regular plate binding the posts together (like most other speaker do).

 

[Deleted member 57422]

Compare the sound from a headphone and from a speaker is a difficult task, not to say an impossible or artificial one. On a phone, you don't have room modes, and soundstage is quite different, much more open with speakers.

I'm sorry, I lost you there.

What is the relation to headphones here?

I was talking about 2 different set of Passive monitors....

Also, what's with the phone part of your sentence?

I'm sorry, I really just don't understand.

 

[Chrise36]

Pass Labs not good enough to push a small bookshelf and control a 6-inch woofer?
Huge difference in sound between amplifiers!?
KEF R3 Meta sounds like it's out of phase and mellow when Amir shows that the speaker could sound bright.
Cables and network switches make difference in their test.
Should I continue or should I stop here?

The interesting thing is one of the reviewers was praising current sota dsp monitors for their sound but he bought the ATC after all what would be the reason for that?

 

[thewas]

The two guys on the sofa are both sitting off-center, I saw that the guy you mentioned was leaning in many times to hear an accurate stereo image.

That's the downside of listening tests with more than one person, but as I understand it, that was the case with the listening tests Harman did as well.

AFAIK Harman prefers mono listening comparisons of loudspeakers as they are more discriminating on loudspeaker performance.

Also few images I have found in the web with a stereo pair show only one listener:

I’m not surprised by the possibility of timing problems with the KEF speaker, but the guy who finds the timing off is possibly more sensitive to that effect. It's a possibility.

Which possibility?
Old R3

source: https://www.excelia-hifi.cz/kef/test/kef-r3-stereo_10_18.pdf

and ATC SCM 11

source: https://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements

Although the SCM 11 is only a two-way, its response looks "worse", although I know that all suchs responses of typical Hifi loudspeakers with not too highly offsetted drivers are not problematic or audible.

 

[Tovarich007]

I'm sorry, I lost you there.

What is the relation to headphones here?

I was talking about 2 different set of Passive monitors....

Also, what's with the phone part of your sentence?

I'm sorry, I really just don't understand.

Oh, I'm very sorry myself, I made a mistake, I should have read your post slowly and more carefully.
I thought you were mentioning a Dan Clarke headphone, speaking of AEon,. But, as you wrote it -shame on me_ it's indeed an APS monitor speaker.

By the way, I never listened to any APS speakers ; they are well reputated in France, but we don't often meet people equipped with these relatively confidential speakers.
A few years ago, APS put on the market a large and very deep 3 way active speaker which was a direct competitor of the excellent ATC SCM 50 or PSI A25. Too bad this model has been discontinued.

 

[Deleted member 57422]

Oh, I'm very sorry myself, I made a mistake, I should have read your post slowly and more carefully.
I thought you were mentioning a Dan Clarke headphone, speaking of AEon,. But, as you wrote it -shame on me_ it's indeed an APS monitor speaker.

By the way, I never listened to any APS speakers ; they are well reputated in France, but we don't often meet people equipped with these relatively confidential speakers.
A few years ago, APS put on the market a large and very deep 3 way active speaker which was a direct competitor of the excellent ATC SCM 50 or PSI A25. Too bad this model has been discontinued.

No worries.

The APS Trinity are still available as far as I know.

Trinity | APS - Audio Pro Solutions

Trinity combines all our experience in speaker design into one powerful, precise and overwhelmingly realistic sounding package. What You Hear is What You Get. When mixing any material, be it a hit song for an upcoming album or a soundtrack for a blockbuster movie, you want to be able to rely on...

www.aps-company.com

https://audioworks.hu/arlista/aps.pdf

But I heard some tech support horror stories for the past year. I'm not sure what is going on to be honest.

 

[Purité Audio]

Why ATC is not sending an SCM50 to Amir is beyond me

Why do you think?
Keith

 

[Deleted member 57422]

Because they don't need to be reviewed as they are a professional studio industry staple for over 40 years which is where the music you listen to on your test bench monitors come from.

That's what usually happen when you have nothing to prove to anyone.

 

[Purité Audio]

Well it could be that, more likely it is this,


Probably quite decent 40 years ago.
Keith