ATC speakers / Monitors

[Geert]

Ridiculous. Compare a berinhger 2031 with the ATC 25 ....

Maybe you could do an attempt to understand what the other is saying before being rude.

 

[Frgirard]

Maybe you could do an attempt to understand what the other is saying before being rude.

I read "similarly price"...and full things so northward is right it's trolling.
But when we want to do propaganda, we compare logos

The 1038cf must be compared with the atc scm110asl.

 

[tuga]

Do you agree that direct sound on-axis linearity and bass region LP smooth response is necessary leaving only directivity wideness as a variable?

For monitoring on-axis should be flat anchoical. Bass smoothness at the listening spot (if that's what you mean by LP) is necessary but depends more on the room than on the speakers.

For domestic, it depends on who you ask. Many people seem to enjoy slightly exaggerated treble, others appreciate a shallow but wide dip in the presence range, quite a few don't toe-in the speakers much and probably get a bit of roll-off at the top.

The mic setup doesn't matter there as the tonality will be corrected at the mixing and mastering stages.

Not all is about tonality (regarding mic placement). By mic'ing too close one picks up annoying mechanical noises, or organic ones.

 

[thewas]

For monitoring on-axis should be flat anchoical. Bass smoothness at the listening spot (if that's what you mean by LP) is necessary but depends more on the room than on the speakers.

For domestic, it depends on who you ask. Many people seem to enjoy slightly exaggerated treble, others appreciate a shallow but wide dip in the presence range, quite a few don't toe-in the speakers much and probably get a bit of roll-off at the top.

I agree there, my previous response was only about studios and the way to reduce the circle of confusion, what people do at their homes is of course up to them, but this way at least people who want to have a reproduction close to what in the studio intended have a chance, like movie colour calibration.

Not all is about tonality (regarding mic placement). By mic'ing too close one picks up annoying mechanical noises, or organic ones.

Of course, that is a different topic though.

 

[thewas]

The straight response usually means elevated treble in lp and maybe lack of bass as shown in many reviews here or the measurements in previous posts.

As said from @TimVG above it seems you are confusing anechoic on-axis response with room response at the listening position.

 

[YSC]

First of all thank you for your contributions here.

Genuinely interested though in some hard data on these particular claims.

The only apples to apples comparison I have is from Anselm Goertz (S&R) on the similarly priced ATC 25 and Gelenec 1038CF.
While both loudspeakers perform well within their own design criteria it does appear the Genelec performs better in terms of frequency response, distortion and pair deviation.

View attachment 231429

comparing the KH310A and the SCM25ASL pro which are both similar in size and format, it seems like the distortion and flatness is both better on the Neumann also

these are the ones with available measurements on web, not the main monitors, but if the same vendor with same driver tech, I wonder if it would magically have far lower distortion or so with the main monitors, it's possible, but better to have measurements to proof it.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

First of all thank you for your contributions here.

Genuinely interested though in some hard data on these particular claims.

The only apples to apples comparison I have is from Anselm Goertz (S&R) on the similarly priced ATC 25 and Gelenec 1038CF.
While both loudspeakers perform well within their own design criteria it does appear the Genelec performs better in terms of frequency response, distortion and pair deviation.

View attachment 231429

This seems, like many other ATC measurements, to have been done on the wrong vertical plane - this FR is basically an inverted curve compared to how they sound, and doesn’t correlate with other measurements, i.e. the one in resolutionmag. This is what happens when people do uninformed measurements, without using their ears. Amateurish.

https://resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ATC-SCM25A-Pro.pdf

View attachment 231518View attachment 231519

comparing the KH310A and the SCM25ASL pro which are both similar in size and format, it seems like the distortion and flatness is both better on the Neumann also

these are the ones with available measurements on web, not the main monitors, but if the same vendor with same driver tech, I wonder if it would magically have far lower distortion or so with the main monitors, it's possible, but better to have measurements to proof it.

It is in fact not the same drivers. The 25 does not even use ATC’s own tweeter, which is introduced from the 45. From the 50’s and up Woofer, Mid dome and tweeter are all SL spec with improved distortion and SPL capabilities, and they include substantially more powerful amp packs.

 

[Chrise36]

As said from @TimVG above it seems you are confusing anechoic on-axis response with room response at the listening position.

No i mean if you compare the flat anechoic speakers which is usually the case with Genelec with the actual measured fr in lp there is no tilt which might lead to bright treble

 

[ctrl]

A brief evaluation of the information posted by @YSC regarding ATC SCM 25 versus KH310.

FR comparison

3% THD comparison:

KH310 shows less THD, except in the 300-450Hz range.

Since the phase frequency response is also available for both speakers, we can also make a assessment about the group delay in the bass frequency range.
To do this, we look at the phase frequency response below 300Hz.
The phase shift for the ATC is about 500°, for the KH310 about 320°.

Thus, the group delay of the ATC should be significantly larger than that of the KH310 (since GD is the negative derivative of the phase frequency response).
If you look at the FR above and assume a minimum phase behavior below 300Hz, it also becomes clear that the GD of the KH310 must be significantly lower than that of the ATC.

 

[thewas]

No i mean if you compare the flat anechoic speakers which is usually the case with Genelec with the actual measured fr in lp there is no tilt which might lead to bright treble

I haven't seen seen a Genelec with not a tilted response at the LP, here for example for the 8030 you just posted the spinorama:

This is resulting at conventional loudspeakers from their increasing directivity at increasing frequency, look at the directivity index plots on the spinorama which rises.
The only difference is that some loudspeakers have higher increase in the directivity and some less, but this is more personal taste and ideally should match the reverberation characteristics of the room and the listening distance.

 

[YSC]

This seems, like many other ATC measurements, to have been done on the wrong vertical plane - this FR is basically an inverted curve compared to how they sound, and doesn’t correlate with other measurements, i.e. the one in resolutionmag.

https://resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ATC-SCM25A-Pro.pdf


It is in fact not the same drivers. The 25 does not even use ATC’s own tweeter, which is introduced from the 45. From the 50’s and up Woofer, Mid dome and tweeter are all SL spec with improved distortion and SPL capabilities, and they include substantially more powerful amp packs.

well we don't know both measurement conditions so it's not a productive or meaningful arguement, thing is, when side to side, same size class they are not performing better than cheaper competition, only apple to apple comparison is either same price range, or same size class, done by the same source, in their higher end lineup yea, one would assume they perform overall better with better spec. components, but then, the competition is also using better, larger, lower distortion components... so I think that's why a lot of ppl here ask for comparable measurements and not simply saying that their higher end is magical and better than competitors, just because pro uses them (where a lot of large studio pros use a lot of other brands also).

 

[Chrise36]

I haven't seen seen a Genelec with not a tilted response at the LP, here for example for the 8030 you just posted the spinorama:

This is resulting at conventional loudspeakers from their increasing directivity at increasing frequency, look at the directivity index plots on the spinorama which rises.
The only difference is that some loudspeakers have higher increase in the directivity and some less, but this is more personal taste and ideally should match the reverberation characteristics of the room and the listening distance.

The actual measurements and not the PIR in casual and probably untreated home environment shows rather elevated treble.Preference is another thing.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

well we don't know both measurement conditions so it's not a productive or meaningful arguement, thing is, when side to side, same size class they are not performing better than cheaper competition, only apple to apple comparison is either same price range, or same size class, done by the same source, in their higher end lineup yea, one would assume they perform overall better with better spec. components, but then, the competition is also using better, larger, lower distortion components... so I think that's why a lot of ppl here ask for comparable measurements and not simply saying that their higher end is magical and better than competitors, just because pro uses them (where a lot of large studio pros use a lot of other brands also).

Stop quoting if you only want to make false assumptions and try to start irrelevant arguments. You are assuming I am making a case for the ATC as a better monitor than KH320. I am not - however it should be clear to anyone that this ATC measurement was done wrong. Again.

Neumann and Genelec use the same transducers for their Ones and KH lineup, only increasing woofer size. Not that it is in itself a problem.

 

[Hephaestus]

The actual measurements and not the PIR in casual and probably untreated home environment shows rather elevated treble.Preference is another thing.

It seems your are not completely familiar what that PIR is?

Stop quoting if you only want to make false assumptions and try to start irrelevant arguments. You are assuming I am making a case for the ATC as a better monitor than KH320. I am not - however it should be clear to anyone that this ATC measurement was done wrong. Again.

Neumann and Genelec use the same transducers for their Ones and KH lineup, anly increasing woofer size.

Genelec uses different woofer design in 8351B&8361A than in the smaller Ones.

 

[thewas]

The actual measurements and not the PIR in casual and probably untreated home environment shows rather elevated treble.Preference is another thing.

Can you please post some examples, all the ones I have seen are decreasing on the last octaves.

 

[YSC]

Stop quoting if you only want to make false assumptions and try to start irrelevant arguments. You are assuming I am making a case for the ATC as a better monitor than KH320. I am not - however it should be clear to anyone that this ATC measurement was done wrong. Again.

Neumann and Genelec use the same transducers for their Ones and KH lineup, only increasing woofer size. Not that it is in itself a problem.

No I didn't assume you want to said the ATC 25 is better than KH310, you assume I assume you but whatever. but then the FR flatness/tone curve whatever should be the only thing that is different and not the distortion level when using the wrong axis, and the bass hump is weird, maybe it's the unit or whatsoever causing it. and that off axis swaing of FR shape itself is the reason for directivity.

Maybe I should rephrase my last paragraph, they are not using same drivers in their larger models, but same driver technology in the better offerings, which I believe it's highly possible the other players, not only genelec and neumann, in their higher end products will use better drivers with similar tech to their smaller offerings, with better performance in distortion etc.

Neumann don't have a wide lineup but for genelec you have the S360, and various main monitors, so still, ATC uses better drivers in their bigger lineup isn't gurantee in they out perform better in terms of distortion or GD, it will be glad to see if the bigger ATC is really great, but yet to see the measurements are the thing here

 

[Chrise36]

Can you please post some examples, all the ones I have seen are decreasing on the last octaves.

 

[thewas]

View attachment 231558View attachment 231559

I thought we are talking about Genelecs?

 

[Chrise36]

Genelec 8030c

 

[YSC]

Genelec 8030cView attachment 231563

Well this is my setup before eq and adding 7040.. in a completely untreated room on desktop. It did slope downward in last octave