ATC speakers / Monitors

[thewas]

I'd argue their 3-ways probably have smooth-ish directivity (if the plots from S&R are to be believed). Perfect, no, but definitely not hot garbage.

Sure it is not bad but can be done even better as it can be seen from competitor loudspeakers with similar driver sizes and appropriate waveguides like you nicely showed above with the SCM 25 vs KH 310 comparison.

 

[thewas]

The atc dome used by K+H is a legend. Only the O500 used the atc dome.

The same story exists for Quested, pmc and Co.

While definitely a legend when it was released 40 years ago and still even with todays standard a very good driver it, engineering has moved on as it can be seen here and from various other drivers like Purifi.

 

[Frgirard]

While definitely a legend when it was released 40 years ago and still even with todays standard a very good driver it, engineering has moved on as it can be seen here and from various other drivers like Purifi.

You misunderstood me. By legend, I mean a fairy tale.
It was a time when a guy saw a mid dome, he saw an atc dome.

 

[DSJR]

I agree and when you can trade off of past glories why would you, much easier and cheaper to keep making the same old products.
Keith

Those 'same old products' were pretty damned good regardless - and I feel they still are, especially in the domestic market which is so addled with crap at all prices. Let's face it, the stuff you sell really won't find its way into many high end owners' homes sadly.

An aside with apologies (again). You buy an all-in-one active speaker and you're done! great for the likes of me, but audiophools like to tinker, add more boxes (Naim fans) and continue to climb up the greasy pole to nowhere. Many do realise but it's too late as they've invested so much money in third or fourth rate crap and would lose too much changing course...

 

[Purité Audio]

Any measurements for any of the Northward rooms anywhere?
@DSJR after so many years I have become extremely jaundiced, so many products have been heavily marketed held in high esteem by audiophiles/magazines/dealers only ( mostly thanks to Amir) to be found to have feet of clay, ask of everything what is it unto itself, the ATCs A measured here were extremely poor, and were produced for what seven years?
Keith

 

[Geert]

I own KH310s and have used SCM25As quite a bit. They're both good - my opinion, the KH310 is better on its own. The SCM25s need a sub, they don't extend low enough.

Affirmative. I worked a lot on both and the SCM25's lack lows. They are renowned for their impressive mid range, but for a studio monitor it's not OK to obtain that mid range clarity partly by holding back on the lows. The SCM25's can sound amazing, but I always need to double check on other monitors to assure my work translates well. With the KH310's I feel more confident.

 

[Geert]

Yeah, they just don't extend particularly low for their size. It's an active consequence of their design choices - they tune for better transient response (read: quicker decay) in the low end rather than maximal linear extension.

Unfortunately I can't find a reference, but a few weeks back I read a research paper that concludes the difference in transient response between different (reasonable) alignments (QTC=0.5 versus QTC=0.7) isn't really that audible. The difference you hear is mainly determined by the difference in frequency response (especially if the alignment results in a low end peak). It would explain why Genelec and Neumann go for an alignment that provides the lowest -3dB point.

 

[goat76]

Any measurements for any of the Northward rooms anywhere?
@DSJR after so many years I have become extremely jaundiced, so many products have been heavily marketed held in high esteem by audiophiles/magazines/dealers only ( mostly thanks to Amir) to be found to have feet of clay, ask of everything what is it unto itself, the ATCs A measured here were extremely poor, and were produced for what seven years?
Keith

How flat the speaker's measure in room is of secondary importance as long as the studio engineer trust what he hears and the reference material sounds fantastic, and the mixes translate.

Do you think the quality of music production has taken a significant step forward since Genelec and similar flat measuring monitors entered the market?

ATC measures flat enough and are usually good for other aspects like dynamics, good transient response and a non-fatiguing sound.

 

[Purité Audio]

This is the, ‘you can get used to a poor product’ argument, but why just not use transparent loudspeakers n the first instance.
Keith

 

[Frgirard]

This is the, ‘you can get used to a poor product’ argument, but why just not use transparent loudspeakers n the first instance.
Keith

Today in studio we have engineers in poetry. Anything can do the job.

 

[Geert]

How flat the speaker's measure in room is of secondary importance as long as the studio engineer trust what he hears and the reference material sounds fantastic, and the mixes translate.

That's what I just explained in the post before yours. With the SCM25's I'm not totally confident of how my mixes will translate. They can sound amazing in the studio, and at the same time I have the idea I'll never get that very specific ATC sound elsewhere.

(Note where talking nuances here. Far from saying the ATC's are no good at all).

 

[Torbachkristensen]

This is the, ‘you can get used to a poor product’ argument, but why just not use transparent loudspeakers n the first instance.
Keith

You are manipulating every single post you have quoted here, projecting it with your pretty obvious agenda.

And from your statements it seems like the only answer to transparent is linear frequency response, and really that can just be done with EQ. Anyone with ears however will know that it is not that simple, and loudspeakers can measure frequency flat and sound shit. There are many variables here. I can say without a shadow of doubt that a pair of ATC110 in a northward will measure and sound more “transparent” in every aspect than a pair of Kii or Dutch in any room. That is not to say they are not good speakers, especially next to conventional designs in a compromised room, which is what they are designed for.

 

[dfuller]

The atc dome used by K+H is a legend. Only the O500 used the atc dome.

The same story exists for Quested, pmc and Co.

I mean, not for nothing, but it still is a great driver. It just isn't the only option in town any more.

Affirmative. I worked a lot on both and the SCM25's lack lows. They are renowned for their impressive mid range, but for a studio monitor it's not OK to obtain that mid range clarity partly by holding back on the lows. The SCM25's can sound amazing, but I always need to double check on other monitors to assure my work translates well. With the KH310's I feel more confident.

I think I'd be ok with the scm25s with a sub. The Neumanns need one too, for distortion reasons. A little sealed box like the KH310 runs out of steam real fast below about 60hz.

As an aside, ATC has the right idea crossing the midrange lower, it reduces IM distortion on the woofer and keeps the "one tooth comb" interference to a minimum. Neumann's choice of 650-700hz is bizarre to me.

 

[goat76]

That's what I just explained in the post before yours. With the SCM25's I'm not totally confident of how my mixes will translate. They can sound amazing in the studio, and at the same time I have the idea I'll never get that very specific ATC sound elsewhere.

(Note where talking nuances here. Far from saying the ATC's are no good at all).

I didn't read your post before I write mine, sorry.

I guess it can be different for different people, you clearly didn't feel totally confident with your SCM25, while others do and get the mixes to translate well.

I guess it got to do with personal preferences, if the reference material sounds perfectly fine on the monitors, there's no reason your mixes won't.

 

[Geert]

I think I'd be ok with the scm25s with a sub. The Neumanns need one too, for distortion reasons.

SCM25's with a sub could work, although that's an additional cost. And most engineers I know don't like using subs. The KH310's are OK without a sub if you keep the volume level under control. With the O300 that was more of a problem.

 

[Geert]

I guess it can be different for different people, you clearly didn't feel totally confident with your SCM25, while others do and get the mixes to translate well. I guess it got to do with personal preferences, if the reference material sounds perfectly fine on the monitors, there's no reason your mixes won't.

Didn't say I couldn't get the job done on SCM25's, on the contrary. But it's just not what I prefer (as a 1 box solution). Also other engineers might use a second set of speakers to double check and make corrections in the low end, which will happen anyhow during mastering.

 

[YSC]

You are manipulating every single post you have quoted here, projecting it with your pretty obvious agenda.

And from your statements it seems like the only answer to transparent is linear frequency response, and really that can just be done with EQ. Anyone with ears however will know that it is not that simple, and loudspeakers can measure frequency flat and sound shit. There are many variables here. I can say without a shadow of doubt that a pair of ATC110 in a northward will measure and sound more “transparent” in every aspect than a pair of Kii or Dutch in any room. That is not to say they are not good speakers, especially next to conventional designs in a compromised room, which is what they are designed for.

I just don't get it, why you kept comparing a whole package of a room+speaker tailored with or without EQ or such to other pair of speaker in a non-optimized room. I bet if a properly engineered room is in the equation, all those big studio sofit mounted solutions will sound similarly if not better

 

[maxijazz]

No established company wants to find itself a wholly new customer base.

That is true for 99% of companies.
But the 1% often achieve unprecedent market success. Starking example is Apple’s disruptive innovation modus operandi.

 

[Purité Audio]

You are manipulating every single post you have quoted here, projecting it with your pretty obvious agenda.

And from your statements it seems like the only answer to transparent is linear frequency response, and really that can just be done with EQ. Anyone with ears however will know that it is not that simple, and loudspeakers can measure frequency flat and sound shit. There are many variables here. I can say without a shadow of doubt that a pair of ATC110 in a northward will measure and sound more “transparent” in every aspect than a pair of Kii or Dutch in any room. That is not to say they are not good speakers, especially next to conventional designs in a compromised room, which is what they are designed for.

No, you may be able to flatten the on-axis response but you can’t EQ out a poor ( and different) off-axis it is that difference between on and off FR that adds colour to the ATCs.
The 8C is the type of loudspeaker ATC should be making.
Keith

 

[dfuller]

SCM25's with a sub could work, although that's an additional cost. And most engineers I know don't like using subs. The KH310's are OK without a sub if you keep the volume level under control. With the O300 that was more of a problem.

I think most engineers don't like subs because they've only used poorly integrated ones. It should be seamless.