• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

ATC speakers / Monitors

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,335
Likes
5,050
I was discussing digital crossovers with Ben ( we had been discussing the then newly released Kii Three) and he said that ATC used a MiniDSP processor to prototype crossovers but would never be allowed to release a production speaker with a digital crossover, PSI are much the same making ( or trying to) something positive out their obsolescence.
Keith
I'd believe that - especially the use of a MiniDSP for crossover design. It's a lot easier to prototype via DSP than iterative tweaks to analog circuits.

I'd also be inclined to say their driver design is top notch, it's the integration that needs a little work.
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,050
Likes
12,148
Location
London
It is fascinating how companies stagnate it nearly always takes a start up to really innovate, on the other hand there is something to be said being the last buggy whip manufacturer.
Keith
 

Digby

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
1,632
Likes
1,555
It is fascinating how companies stagnate it nearly always takes a start up to really innovate, on the other hand there is something to be said being the last buggy whip manufacturer.
Keith
If you have ready and longstanding buyers for a certain kind of product, I think it makes good business sense to focus on change by degrees. Look at the MoFi vinyl thing - they used DSD for their masters and their customers were not happy in the least. Whether their unhappiness is rational or not is of little consequence, if they stop buying your products.

No established company wants to find itself a wholly new customer base. ATC would have to compete with many manufacturers who are already at the cutting edge technology wise. I don't think radical change would make sense in their position.
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,050
Likes
12,148
Location
London
I agree and when you can trade off of past glories why would you, much easier and cheaper to keep making the same old products.
Keith
 

Torbachkristensen

Active Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
166
Likes
189
See, that's the thing I don't get. They already do use waveguides on the mid dome, why not on the tweeter? It makes crossing the tweeter and mid easier by matching the directivity, it minimizes tweeter beaming above 10k, it improves tweeter sensitivity by providing something resembling horn loading....

If you look at the SCM25A's horizontal off-axis response behavior from Sound and Recording (if you want to read the whole review, it has to be paid for - I sourced this from another site where someone else posted it)...
attachment.php


It's overall quite even if you look at the -6dB (yellow) - minus the tweeter mid crossover, which is a touch messy because of a combination of a relatively high crossover point (~3.5k) and a lack of waveguide loading on the tweeter. Then the tweeter beams starting around 8k.

Honestly for a speaker sans waveguide loading on the tweeter this is pretty good.

Compare that to the KH310...
attachment.php


The tweeter and mid on this cross around 2KHz is totally even, and the tweeter doesn't beam. This is a result of the waveguide loading of the tweeter.

NB: The flare around 1k is a "one toothed comb" from Neumann's kind of head-scratching choice to cross the midrange and woofer quite high, around 650hz - shift that 150hz lower and it wouldn't be an issue.
The SCM25 does not use ATC’s own tweeter, and like the 310 is a compromise made to fit in a small box. I don’t think this is representative of how their own tweeter design behaves? I would consider the 50’s and up the sound of ATC, with the SL drivers and larger amp packs. They themselves state the aluminium design as a waveguide - I don’t have the knowledge to say whether that is feasible or not, but a guide should not need much surface area when the tweeter has such a high crossover point, and just needs to match the directivity of a 4” Mid dome.
 
Last edited:

Torbachkristensen

Active Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
166
Likes
189
In-house development is no guarantee of performance. In fact the best drivers in the market are by dedicated developers like Purifi and Scanspeak - that brands either buy out of the catalogue or customise from them - with very few exceptions like Vivid. And the ferrofluid fearmongering is indeed, currently, audiophile voodoo. There were marginally legitimate reasons to avoid ferrofluid pertaining to reliability years ago, but not now. Compromising power handling and cooling for some perceived advantage of tweeter "speed" and serviceability is not exactly the win you think it is.

The absence of ferrofluid in the ATC Tweeter is caused by the dual suspension rendering it obsolete. It wasn’t a goal in itself, but a side effect of the design.
 

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,335
Likes
5,050
The SCM25 does not use ATC’s own tweeter, and like the 310 is a compromise made to fit in a small box. I don’t think this is representative of how their own tweeter design behaves? I would consider the 50’s and up the sound of ATC, with the SL drivers and larger amp packs.
Nobody that I can find has done any spins of the SCM50s or bigger. Regardless, ATC's own tweeter doesn't have any serious dispersion control in the form of a waveguide. They say it has a waveguide, but it's so small as to be inconsequential.

The KH310's limitation from its size is its LF SPL capabilities. They could've gotten more with a ported alignment, but they didn't, because part of K&H's design philosophy seems to be "if it's ported, it had better be front firing."
 

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,335
Likes
5,050
By the way, check out what I found: Someone actually did measurements of the Neumann Dome!

 

Torbachkristensen

Active Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
166
Likes
189
On the atc web site, we can read the list of studio.
Sterling Sound Nashville.
Radio France Paris.
The financial discount do the decision. Not the sound.
It's the business.

In sterling sound, one month has been mandatory to learn the speakers said Greg Calvi.
One month sounds like a miracle. It will usually take at least 6 months to get really used to a new room and speakers. Going from freestanding B&W’s to ATC110 in an FTB room is a huge change, and must be have been quite the challenge.

I can assure you a mastering house like Sterling don’t need a discount, and I would be surprised if they had any. They are included in the contract with Northward. These Northward rooms will cost at least 20 times the price of the speakers and is the whole foundation for their multi million dollar business, being on top for more than 40 years. So there is no financial sense in going with anything, but what they deem to be the best.
 
Last edited:

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,741
Likes
16,174
Everything involves compromises. There is no such thing as “highest level” in all aspects. However there is such a thing as designing towards a specific purpose/implementation, and choosing the right compromises.
Sure, but getting a smooth directivity is something which can be achieved without significant drawbacks.
 

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,335
Likes
5,050
Sure, but getting a smooth directivity is something which can be achieved without significant drawbacks.
I'd argue their 3-ways probably have smooth-ish directivity (if the plots from S&R are to be believed). Perfect, no, but definitely not hot garbage.
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
One month sounds like a miracle. It will usually take at least 6 months to get really used to a new room and speakers. Going from freestanding B&W’s to ATC110 in an FTB room is a huge change, and must be have been quite the challenge.

I can assure you a mastering house like Sterling don’t need a discount, and I would be surprised if they had any. They are included in the contract with Northward. These Northward rooms will cost at least 20 times the price of the speakers and is the whole foundation for their multi million dollar business, being on top for more than 40 years. So there is no financial sense in going with anything, but what they deem to be the best.
For the month, It's the tells of Calbi.

You idealized a world where competition is fierce.

I grant you, in a project like sterling sound, the cost of the speakers is not much.
Sterling sound obviously has to negotiate the overall envelope.

At Radio France, it is a pure and simple replacement of Cabasse by ATC. It would seem that the engineers of radio France have been presented with a fait accompli.
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
By the way, check out what I found: Someone actually did measurements of the Neumann Dome!

The atc dome used by K+H is a legend. Only the O500 used the atc dome.

The same story exists for Quested, pmc and Co.
 
Last edited:

Torbachkristensen

Active Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
166
Likes
189
You idealized a world where competition is fierce.

I grant you, in a project like sterling sound, the cost of the speakers is not much.
Sterling sound obviously has to negotiate the overall envelope.

At Radio France, it is a pure and simple replacement of Cabasse by ATC. It would seem that the engineers of radio France have been presented with a fait accompli.

The ATC110 is dictated by Northward. He would never install anything else in a Sterling build that is for sure - his trust in them is religious if you read interviews. and I canmt blame him, they are by far the best speaker in existence for what he does.

If radio France has a speaker company dictate their equipment, then they are idiots need to make better decisions. That would never be accepted at the Danish Broadcast.
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
The ATC110 is dictated by Northward. He would never install anything else in a Sterling build that is for sure - his trust in them is religious if you read interviews. and I canmt blame him, they are by far the best speaker in existence for what he does.

If radio France has a speaker company dictate their equipment, then they are idiots need to make better decisions. That would never be accepted at the Danish Broadcast.
The Danish broadcast have money.

Amsterdam mastering by Northward, I don't see ATC.
 

Torbachkristensen

Active Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
166
Likes
189
The Danish broadcast have money.

Amsterdam mastering by Northward, I don't see ATC.
No offence, but Amsterdam Mastering does not have the exposure 6 rooms at Sterling has. There are lots of Northwards rooms without ATC, but it is not what he would recommend.
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,040
I don't see offense. Thomas Jeanjouan do marketing.
Jeanjouan recommend to design the room around the speakers. When your speakers dead... The room will be destroyed.
He is also an atc reseller.

By chance ATC do speaker unbreakable, this is a great quality of this brand compared to focal, Barefoot or Dynaudio.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom