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ATC speakers / Monitors

dfuller

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Anyone actually *heard* the mid dome of the Neumanns and the ATCs?
I wonder how similar / different they sound
Not in the same system, but have used both. It's impossible to separate it from the whole system.

They're both excellent drivers though, and any difference will be more about how they're integrated than anything else.
 

DSJR

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My issue (not an 'issue' really, just an annoyance), is that I don't know anywhere where peeps like me could get a listen, casual or otherwise, to the Neumanns, Genelecs and similar, where some chain stores like larger Audio T, can have 50's on dem, although I suspect they're the passive ones driven by underpowered Naim amps rather than the 'one stop' active version.

Not even sure if dear old Keith at Purite could help here ;) I wouldn't want to waste his time anyway to be fair...
 

dfuller

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My issue (not an 'issue' really, just an annoyance), is that I don't know anywhere where peeps like me could get a listen, casual or otherwise, to the Neumanns, Genelecs and similar, where some chain stores like larger Audio T, can have 50's on dem, although I suspect they're the passive ones driven by underpowered Naim amps rather than the 'one stop' active version.

Not even sure if dear old Keith at Purite could help here ;) I wouldn't want to waste his time anyway to be fair...
You may want to investigate some pro audio dealers. They're much more likely to have them.
 

DSJR

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You may want to investigate some pro audio dealers. They're much more likely to have them.
There aren't any near here although there might be one in Cambridge, a good stressful drive from here (we don't have the wide open spaces and lighter traffic on our main artery roads sadly. One day I'll attempt it if the place I'm thinking of still exists :) Domestic dealers hod nothing for me now except expensive bling-boxes to feast the eyes and fool the ears.
 

YSC

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There aren't any near here although there might be one in Cambridge, a good stressful drive from here (we don't have the wide open spaces and lighter traffic on our main artery roads sadly. One day I'll attempt it if the place I'm thinking of still exists :) Domestic dealers hod nothing for me now except expensive bling-boxes to feast the eyes and fool the ears.
but I think in UK you have free return policy with minimal cost buying from thomann and return if you dislike them?
 

DSJR

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but I think in UK you have free return policy with minimal cost buying from thomann and return if you dislike them?
I'm 'tyre kicking' right now, missing the day to day dems I used to do but still keen to hear new things worth hearing (Genelec and Neumann are top of the aspiration list and of course there's others under a couple of grand or so of course). I may be seen to speak from semi-ignorance sometimes to some around these parts, but the desire to learn and experience more is still there. I simply can't borrow stuff on sale-or-return, at least not yet so the forum chatter is interesting.

I doubt the likes of Neumann can be arsed frankly to deal with the very fickle domestic side, but Genelec have RCA versions I'm told by a kind respondent here and there's also stylish versions with built-in stands, although these may find their way into super-deluxe home furnishers I suspect, rather than dealer salons? The thing is, PMC and B&W don't seem to perform as well, despite appearances and sheer size in PMC's case (QB1 is an expensive example). The domestic PMC Fenestria is huge fun in a larger space with several hundred Watts to play with, but good enough to mix with? I'll reserve judgement there.
 

czt

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YSC

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I'm 'tyre kicking' right now, missing the day to day dems I used to do but still keen to hear new things worth hearing (Genelec and Neumann are top of the aspiration list and of course there's others under a couple of grand or so of course). I may be seen to speak from semi-ignorance sometimes to some around these parts, but the desire to learn and experience more is still there. I simply can't borrow stuff on sale-or-return, at least not yet so the forum chatter is interesting.

I doubt the likes of Neumann can be arsed frankly to deal with the very fickle domestic side, but Genelec have RCA versions I'm told by a kind respondent here and there's also stylish versions with built-in stands, although these may find their way into super-deluxe home furnishers I suspect, rather than dealer salons? The thing is, PMC and B&W don't seem to perform as well, despite appearances and sheer size in PMC's case (QB1 is an expensive example). The domestic PMC Fenestria is huge fun in a larger space with several hundred Watts to play with, but good enough to mix with? I'll reserve judgement there.
Actually if you don’t go to the 5.1 setup etc you can find dac that have xlr outputs really easily. The genelec G series with white finishing and their sub look less industrial and home friendly though
 

czt

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That woman sure knows how to squeeze the dynamics out of the music. Look at the screen behind her. :)
Sadly, as most of them, if the clients requested it, instead of educate the producers about streaming normalization. Industry, money.
 
OP
Pearljam5000

Pearljam5000

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Why do ATC use such big cabinets?
The KH420 is much smaller than SCM50 with similar sized drivers
 

DSJR

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The 50's not a big speaker (well maybe in the waf friendly twenty teens it is). To me, it's a classic Spendor BC1 on steroids in terms of the box and maybe a little deeper. The 420 is hugely deep I believe, a bit like smaller ATC 100's...
 

ferrellms

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Thanks everybody
But there's still somewhat of a gap between the amount of love they get here Vs everywhere else, I guess we'll know when Amir will get a chance to test the one of the higher end pro models.
My theory (useless of course) is that ATC are good monitors and have a admirable history in the recording studio world. It would seem, however, that technology has passed them by and they are no longer the state of art. The good vibes remain for those who already have spent the large bucks for them and those who are influenced by those folks. Also, British users seem particularly fond of them (nationalism) and anyone that follows pop music realizes the outsized influence of British producers. And they ARE good - just not as good as other more recent offerings from Genelec, etc.

Measurements are the ONLY way to get to the bottom of it all.
 
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ferrellms

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Even if you sit directly on axis, the off axis response still greatly affects the sound you hear.
Definitely - in fact, in many cases off axis sound bouncing off walls will dominate what you hear. If that off axis sound is ragged, so is what you hear.
 

3125b

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dfuller

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Definitely - in fact, in many cases off axis sound bouncing off walls will dominate what you hear. If that off axis sound is ragged, so is what you hear.
While true, I want to emphasize that studios generally have a great deal of absorption, so reflections are not nearly so dominant as in a typical domestic room. The PIR equation for a studio environment is likely substantially different from that of a domestic room.

These midfield monitor type speakers are all not huge compared to typical passive speakers:

The SCM50ASL are still larger at 104,6l compared to the KH 420 at 94,5l. That old-fashined wide baffle speaker is bigger than both of those combined though.
The KH420 and SCM50 aren't massive but the SCM100 and SCM150 are huge.
 

goat76

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Definitely - in fact, in many cases off axis sound bouncing off walls will dominate what you hear. If that off axis sound is ragged, so is what you hear.
As I've understood it, from around 500Hz and up it’s the direct sound that is the dominating sound we hear. That's the reason why we should never do any EQ adjustment over that point based on the measurements taken from the listening position (as long as the measurements are not gated that is).

But with that said, the reflections will of course color the perceived sound in many ways.
 
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Tangband

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As I've understood it, from around 500Hz and up it’s the direct sound that is the dominating sound we hear. That's the reason why we should never do any EQ adjustment over that point based on the measurements taken from the listening position (as long as the measurements are not gated that is).

But with that said, the reflection will of course color the perceived sound in many ways.
This is absolutely correct. Depending on the listening position and the size of the room , I would say in some cases between 300 - 500 Hz . The precedence effect from listening position gonna make your brain lock on the first arriving sound, the direct sound from the speaker, and the brain will attenuate reflected delayed ( 5 ms or more ) sound coming from the walls with up to -10 dB.

So above 300-500 Hz the direct sound is dominant of what you hear at listening position.

The measurement microphone has no intelligence , dont select sounds as the brain does, and give false results from distances longer than 1,7 meters and above 300-500 Hz if the measurements is done in a normal room.

Measurements above those frequencies from the listening position 3 meters away from the loudspeakers says nothing of value. With standmountspeakers , If one wants to correct the frequency response from 500-20000 Hz its best to measure from 1 meter or 90 cm distance on axis and 15 degrees off axis from the single speaker, and use the average function if the speaker dont have really good directivity. Dont forget to measure both loudspeakers, one at a time so they will be corrected individually for superb stereo image. ( As you know ) .
Bigger florstanding speakers is best measured at 2 meters distances outside the house to avoid reflections.
 
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ferrellms

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Why do ATC use such big cabinets?
The KH420 is much smaller than SCM50 with similar sized drivers
They have sealed box cabinets which have to be bigger than ported for a given low bass output. This increases the cost and size of the monitor. Some do claim that sealed boxes sound better since very low frequencies are delayed less than with ported boxes and thus have "tighter bass".
 
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