• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

ATC speakers / Monitors

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
3,194
Likes
2,570
Not really Erins in room measurements show there is higher energy in the highs vs the mids.
Maybe it's my english, I mean in everyroom it can be different, but a anechoic flat speaker have best chance to have in room balanced frequency response, but yea that's why you need room treatment and in room calibration for professional use like those studio brands do to their top tier DSP line

I don't know if you have experience with music production, but I can tell you that ATC speakers works very well for that application.

The most important aspects is that the mixer feel comfortable with the sound and have a good knowledge of how good reference recordings sound on the speakers. No matter how extremely detailed the sound is from the system/speakers, it’s a risk that the mix will end up having a wacky balance if no reference material is used now and then for re-calibrating what is heard.

In short: If the mixing engineer finds his speaker has a good balance (no matter of balanced) listening to good reference material, the result will also be a well-balanced mix.
this sounded really counter intuitive to me and sounded just like: "if I have a reference colour chart, no matter how much my monitor deviate from actual colour I can always tune my photos accurately for print out"

the good reference recordings are more or less just what one get used to, sort of like how a colour chart works in photograpy. but those never covers all frequency spectrum. I think you missed the point of "detail level" in speaker, in my knowledge unless the speaker have very high IMD which masks individual tones, everyspeaker have the same notes reproducing in the music, just the balance (relative level) of individual notes, which is also what they tune or rebalance (mixing) among their workstation, one would like to have the frequency response as linear as possible by all means in room to have that done right. If limited to the usable FR range of my phone speaker, those top speakers don't contain more detail as in extra notes being reproduced, just they are more balanced (i.e. the speaker FR don't modify the original, which is by definition the most balanced/natural/factual sound)
 

goat76

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
1,270
Likes
1,390
well, the Dutch and Dutch are found to have in room listening position measurements being textbook perfect as of natural/real as in the recording itself, so how would it be "give you too much energy in the upper frequencies in the listening position"??

the ATC might be neutral or maybe not where I don't have a definitive answer, but from the available few measurements they don't really looked like they are flat anechoically nor really even handed, so in my understanding it's producing too much energy in here and there by itself, and there's no such thing as "it's magically tuned to fix the room reflection defects so your listening position will be perfect but not the real flat speakers", everybody's room or even studio won't have exact same reflection etc, so by no way the ATC could magically design a non DSP or having something like DIRAC to fix the room issue just by magical natural tuning signature
Sorry, what I meant to say was that the listeners in that particular test seemed to think both the Grim and the Dutch and Dutch had more “studio-like” details, and they all seemed to think the ATC's had a more “listener friendly” balance, that was pretty obvious based on their comments. That also tells me the ATC speaker had a more natural sound to them, and there is no need for anything more than that.

I never said that the ATC’s did anything magically, I only said they don't lack in the detail department. I have these speakers, that's why I now they are highly revealing speakers. :)
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,051
Likes
12,150
Location
London
Without wishing to bang on, any speaker that adds colouration cannot by definition be ‘highly revealing’ having said that ATC and for example the BBC led designs are from the worst offenders, just a bit more coloured than the best contemporary designs.
Keith
 

DSJR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
3,314
Likes
4,427
Location
Suffolk Coastal, UK
40 or 40A?

The passive 40's don't stand a chance as the mid drome cannot be properly integrated with a standard passive crossover unless ATC have re-designed it (curvy waveguide be damned here!) They sell passives as the audiophile market seems to prefer it still in total ignorance and they obviously need to make a living! I think there's measurements on a German site to prove my point.

In a smallish domestic 'UK size' room, the 40A's I heard (with their CD/preamp box) sounded great and I could listen to that sound for many hours with no fatigue and not find it lacking. I did very much like the Kii Threes when I heard them (without BXT) but was it a 'natural' tonality, or just a bit too lean with a tad too much sweet toned 'tinsel' on top? I have no chance of a repeat performance here, so it's guesswork really. I used to regard the 50ASL as a 'Spendor BC1 on steroids' (if any of you remember them) and for similar size room use...

Yes, I'm an unapologetic ATC fanboy, but I'd never monitor with 40A's (that's what the 'proper' ATC's are for (100ASL's upwards)). No idea how they'd compare with the proper large Genelecs or Neumanns these days, but a proper big bass driver or two properly driven and with low distortion is something else in terms of dynamics and in ATC's case, the 200A's I once heard and had a (literal) blast with, were in a different league again. nearest I've come since in terms of this effortless feel was PMC Fenestria's in a large space with several hundred Watts up 'em. Their Pete Thomas told me that's nothing compared to what the QB1's could do - and that's a *proper* high end box over the stupid Wilsons and so on with less exalted drivers and micrometer dispersion adjustments - in my opinion of course ;)
 

goat76

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
1,270
Likes
1,390
Maybe it's my english, I mean in everyroom it can be different, but a anechoic flat speaker have best chance to have in room balanced frequency response, but yea that's why you need room treatment and in room calibration for professional use like those studio brands do to their top tier DSP line


this sounded really counter intuitive to me and sounded just like: "if I have a reference colour chart, no matter how much my monitor deviate from actual colour I can always tune my photos accurately for print out"

the good reference recordings are more or less just what one get used to, sort of like how a colour chart works in photograpy. but those never covers all frequency spectrum. I think you missed the point of "detail level" in speaker, in my knowledge unless the speaker have very high IMD which masks individual tones, everyspeaker have the same notes reproducing in the music, just the balance (relative level) of individual notes, which is also what they tune or rebalance (mixing) among their workstation, one would like to have the frequency response as linear as possible by all means in room to have that done right. If limited to the usable FR range of my phone speaker, those top speakers don't contain more detail as in extra notes being reproduced, just they are more balanced (i.e. the speaker FR don't modify the original, which is by definition the most balanced/natural/factual sound)
Well... If that measured linear frequency response doesn’t sound balanced to the particular mixing engineer while listening to reference* material, and if he's not constantly comparing his mix with the reference material, his mix will most certainly not end up with a similar balance to the reference material.

If he on the other hand like how the balance of the reference material sound on the system/speakers, he will more likely end up with a similar balance with his own mix, just by mixing it until he likes how it sounds.

But, in the end, the most important thing is the constant comparison to the reference material, more so than how linear the speakers really are measure-wise.

*The reference material is of course something the mixing engineer knows well and heard it on many other systems, that's why he chose it as the target.
 

Berlin

Active Member
Joined
May 5, 2021
Messages
269
Likes
489
Location
Berlin
I like the sound of my 40s very much even though they are not perfectly neutral. At their current position (>1 m away from walls and 3 m apart) they measure like this:

Bildschirmfoto 2022-07-21 um 11.52.51.png


I usually increase the base by 2 to 3 dB. If I compare them to the sound to my Genelec 8330 (plus sub) in my office (< 1 m away), it becomes obvious that the ATCs are lacking base (of course). Moreover, the ATC interact with the walls of my room which leads to a wide soundstage and a "transparent" sound (due to bookshelf diffusion?). Sometimes (depending on my mood and the song) the ATC sound is a bit too bright for my taste. By setting the treble to -2 dB (RME ADI-2 DAC FS) I compensate for this. I have ordered a new pair of speakers but will keep my ATCs and move them to another room...
 

Chrise36

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
1,043
Likes
359
40 or 40A?

The passive 40's don't stand a chance as the mid drome cannot be properly integrated with a standard passive crossover unless ATC have re-designed it (curvy waveguide be damned here!) They sell passives as the audiophile market seems to prefer it still in total ignorance and they obviously need to make a living! I think there's measurements on a German site to prove my point.

In a smallish domestic 'UK size' room, the 40A's I heard (with their CD/preamp box) sounded great and I could listen to that sound for many hours with no fatigue and not find it lacking. I did very much like the Kii Threes when I heard them (without BXT) but was it a 'natural' tonality, or just a bit too lean with a tad too much sweet toned 'tinsel' on top? I have no chance of a repeat performance here, so it's guesswork really. I used to regard the 50ASL as a 'Spendor BC1 on steroids' (if any of you remember them) and for similar size room use...

Yes, I'm an unapologetic ATC fanboy, but I'd never monitor with 40A's (that's what the 'proper' ATC's are for (100ASL's upwards)). No idea how they'd compare with the proper large Genelecs or Neumanns these days, but a proper big bass driver or two properly driven and with low distortion is something else in terms of dynamics and in ATC's case, the 200A's I once heard and had a (literal) blast with, were in a different league again. nearest I've come since in terms of this effortless feel was PMC Fenestria's in a large space with several hundred Watts up 'em. Their Pete Thomas told me that's nothing compared to what the QB1's could do - and that's a *proper* high end box over the stupid Wilsons and so on with less exalted drivers and micrometer dispersion adjustments - in my opinion of course ;)
All they passive 40s (V1) need is to bring the tweeter level a bit down.Have you compared actives to passives side by side?
 

DSJR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
3,314
Likes
4,427
Location
Suffolk Coastal, UK
All they passive 40s (V1) need is to bring the tweeter level a bit down.Have you compared actives to passives side by side?
I have 50's and 100's a number of times as well as SL versus pre-SL (that's abit of a difference too, but the bass tuning/port were changed at the same time so it's a combination of these), but not the 40's (I didn't feel the need to). The plots in the review (I'm sure they're here way back in the thread or is it the 19V1 annihilation thread here) I remember on the passive 40 show a more uneven response in the lower midrange crossover region (where I expected it to be) and this will 'smear' the perceived sound slightly on vocals. And no, foo caps, fancy coils and resistors and whatever will NOT fix it!!!!!!!

I apologise, but I have the rest of it chapter and verse from Billy himself when it comes to ATC active and passive and he was quite happy back then to do the dems himself, as well as getting his then vocal sales manager to do it as well.
 

DSJR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
3,314
Likes
4,427
Location
Suffolk Coastal, UK
A response on 40's found online - bit lumpy innit? Would also be annihilated here on that one aspect alone -

atc_scm40_quasi_anechoic.jpg
 

Phorize

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Messages
1,533
Likes
2,060
Location
U.K
Nice to see a design that assumes that purchasers of fancy hifi all have presbycusis
 

Chrise36

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
1,043
Likes
359
A response on 40's found online - bit lumpy innit? Would also be annihilated here on that one aspect alone -

View attachment 219490
That is an easy fix IF the actual response has an audible dip in that region or else there is nothing wrong there. The main problem as you see is the tweeter level which is audible.
 
OP
Pearljam5000

Pearljam5000

Master Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
5,129
Likes
5,357
The SCM50 actives are way better sounding than the passives
 

Liya

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2021
Messages
337
Likes
259
It really isn’t a question of extra ‘details’ although having said that the 8Cs ( cardioid.constant directivity etc) are clearer the ATCs are just a bit more coloured and their bass rolls off a lot more quickly than the other two which obviously emphasises the midrange.
Keith
The ATC 40A's midrange isnt emphasised. It is well balanced with highs and lows. If anything the mids are more forward with D&D (I never heard Grimm). Of course, you can eq D&D but that is not the point here.
 

Chrise36

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
1,043
Likes
359
The SCM50 actives are way better sounding than the passives
A bit better maybe but not miles better as you guys say. Actives' amps are usually higher noise designs compared to the best amplification these days although ATC amps are among the best from what i gather.
 

Chrise36

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
1,043
Likes
359
The ATC 40A's midrange isnt emphasised. It is well balanced with highs and lows. If anything the mids are more forward with D&D (I never heard Grimm). Of course, you can eq D&D but that is not the point here.
How do you find the tweeter presence on the V1?
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
3,194
Likes
2,570
The ATC 40A's midrange isnt emphasised. It is well balanced with highs and lows. If anything the mids are more forward with D&D (I never heard Grimm). Of course, you can eq D&D but that is not the point here.
well technically you can EQ any speaker, but why would you want to EQ a nice flat response speaker to a more variation one?
 

Liya

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2021
Messages
337
Likes
259
well technically you can EQ any speaker, but why would you want to EQ a nice flat response speaker to a more variation one?
The SCM40A seems to be preffered here, as least by these guys. I wonder what speaker (ATC, D&D or Grimm) would be preffered by - say - a million more listeners.
 

Count Arthur

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
2,197
Likes
4,888
well technically you can EQ any speaker, but why would you want to EQ a nice flat response speaker to a more variation one?
Room correction?

A speaker may be ruler flat when measured in an anechoic chamber, but quite far out when measured in various rooms.
 
Top Bottom