Agreed - I have recently bought some custom height stands from Custom Design in Newcastle, UK. They are 350mm tall for my SCM50s. ATC should offer different stand options.I have one criticism of ATC loudspeakers, just like with most other loudspeaker manufacturers, for that matter, and that is about where the height of the acoustic axis ends up on different speaker models, depending on how they are designed. When I optimize my loudspeakers in my listening room, I want to make sure the acoustic axis of my ATC loudspeakers ends up at ear level at my optimal, most critical listening position, as recommended in the manual.
For all the 2-way ATC speakers, the acoustic axis is at the midpoint between the bass/mid driver and the tweeter, while the acoustic axis for all the 3-way ATC speakers is at the height of, or a bit lower than the mid-dome driver. The recommendation, which is stated in the manual, the acoustic axis should be at the ear level or up to 5 degrees above the ear level.
View attachment 542842
This is, of course, not a problem with the smaller 2-way and 3-way models that can be easily positioned at the most optimal height just by using a speaker stand with the correct height for the particular speaker model. But when it comes to the floor-standing models, there is a lack of continuity from speaker to speaker where the height of the acoustic axis ends up, and that is even the case with their classic series of speakers that comes with a stand.
The height of my ears at the listening position is at 91 centimeters above the floor, but I think my sofa is quite low, so the average height is likely a bit higher than that, and probably around 95 centimeters. When I use spikes and Linn Skeet flor protectors, the midpoint of the mid-dome driver of my SCM40s is at 84 centimeters above the floor. To solve that when optimizing the setup, I have tilted the speakers by maximizing the length of the spikes on the front of the speakers, and minimized the length of the spikes at the back of the speakers. This is enough to point the mid-dome driver at the height of my ears at the listening position, which I have confirmed with a laser measuring device.
What I can see in pictures of the SCM50, the mid-dome driver is placed even lower than it is on the SCM40, approximately about 3-4 centimeters lower. I don’t understand why ATC didn’t just make the stand 10 centimeters taller, or maybe even letting the customers making a custom order for the height of the stand, as these speakers are usually made on order anyway.
View attachment 542869
As I said, this is not isolated to ATC. Here’s an example of the Revel Performa Be series of speakers, which have their acoustic axis at the height of the tweeter drivers. The acoustic axis is all over the place with this speaker line.
And the AsciLab 8C8/BX8C combo, which at least will have the acoustic axis 108 centimeters above the floor.
View attachment 542870
Yes, I know that all these loudspeakers have a acoustic “window” that allows for some margins, but if you really want to truly optimize for the absolute best possible sound, that will be listening at the same height as the acoustic axis of the speakers.
The closer you are to the speakers, the larger difference it makes to optimize this. For me who optimizes my speaker setup for a high ratio of direct sound, the listening distance is only about 190 centimeters between the speakers and my ears.
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ATC speakers / Monitors
- Thread starter Pearljam5000
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The factory stands for scm50 are too low for me too.
What I think is that the stands that atc gives with their speakers are more like a first aid, not a permanent solution. After all, atc is probably one of the rare companies that provide any kind of stands with their speakers, so it is maybe to much to expect to make them to measure.
Those factory stands feel pretty cheap and simple, but I think they are well engineered and do the job quite well. However, in the long term, the user must make an effort to build stands that will suit his particular listening conditions.
My choice, for scm50, would be an open frame construction, not something with a lot of mass.
What I think is that the stands that atc gives with their speakers are more like a first aid, not a permanent solution. After all, atc is probably one of the rare companies that provide any kind of stands with their speakers, so it is maybe to much to expect to make them to measure.
Those factory stands feel pretty cheap and simple, but I think they are well engineered and do the job quite well. However, in the long term, the user must make an effort to build stands that will suit his particular listening conditions.
My choice, for scm50, would be an open frame construction, not something with a lot of mass.
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I have only listened to and optimized the setup for the SCM20s since I got them, so no back-and-forth comparison to the SCM40s. I will at some point change back to the 40s to refresh my memory of them.
I find the SCM20s work a little better at low-volume listening in the evening, while the SCM40s may need a little more volume to sound their best. I wonder if this may have something to do with the super-linear driver in the SCM20s, whereas ATC uses their regular drivers in the 40s. Another thing that may be related to the drivers is that the 20s seem to have a bit more energy in the top end, which maybe have something to do with the more powerful S-spec tweeter compared to the non-S-spec tweeter in the 40s, making the overall presentation a little bit more "airy" with the SCM20s.
The SCM20s are brutally revealing speakers, and I think they are better tools for mixing music, which is something I do with my own recordings. While the SCM40s are also highly revealing speakers, the overall presentation may be a tad more forgiving with less-than-perfect sound mixes.
As for the missing dedicated mid-dome driver in the 2-way SCM20s, I must say that ATC have done a great job with their "hybrid" bass/mid-driver, and the midrange quality they are famous for is still there. Great loudspeakers!
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Many interesting points...I have only listened to and optimized the setup for the SCM20s since I got them, so no back-and-forth comparison to the SCM40s. I will at some point change back to the 40s to refresh my memory of them.
I find the SCM20s work a little better at low-volume listening in the evening, while the SCM40s may need a little more volume to sound their best. I wonder if this may have something to do with the super-linear driver in the SCM20s, whereas ATC uses their regular drivers in the 40s. Another thing that may be related to the drivers is that the 20s seem to have a bit more energy in the top end, which maybe have something to do with the more powerful S-spec tweeter compared to the non-S-spec tweeter in the 40s, making the overall presentation a little bit more "airy" with the SCM20s.
The SCM20s are brutally revealing speakers, and I think they are better tools for mixing music, which is something I do with my own recordings. While the SCM40s are also highly revealing speakers, the overall presentation may be a tad more forgiving with less-than-perfect sound mixes.
As for the missing dedicated mid-dome driver in the 2-way SCM20s, I must say that ATC have done a great job with their "hybrid" bass/mid-driver, and the midrange quality they are famous for is still there. Great loudspeakers!
Yes, speakers of such class deserves exstended evaluating period, with broad choice od music and equipment and with enought time and good mood for all that.
Back and forth comparison could be sooo uncomplete and confusing...
Better drivers, within the same manufacturer, will lead to better, more revealing and more everything else reproduction. I would'n question that fact.
In my view, decision between scm40 and scm20 lies in ther main purpose :
Scm40 belongs to serie aimed for home, scm20 for studio.
Now, there could be many reasons to decide between them two, but I would keep in mind that atc made these two speakers for different purpose.
So, maybe the real question should be : what do I want/need?
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I did the same when I bought the SCM11s and used them for a couple of months as the main front speakers, even though they were meant as surround speakers. When I changed back to the SCM40s, I realized how great the mid-dome drivers are.
This time it will probably be tougher for the SCM40s to take back the position as the main front speakers, as the SCM20s are really great speakers because of the qualities I mentioned earlier.
It’s almost expected to be impressed by a new loudspeaker for the first couple of weeks, as it’s always fun with new shiny “toys”. That’s why I’m a firm believer in giving it more time, letting the honeymoon pass, and really taking the time to set the new speakers up as best as possible. After that period has passed, it’s time to reevaluate the older speakers.
It’s a bonus to use the SCM40s as surround speakers in my system, as that almost gives me full-range speakers at the back while the SCM20s + two subwoofers are full-range at the front, so the surround system is definitely better overall if the 40s stay at the back.
I have used the SCM40s to mix my own recorded music for many years, and that has worked out great for me. As I said, the 40s are also highly revealing speakers, though I think the 20s take it a step further. It's not a "day and night" difference between these speakers, and I think all my ATC speakers (SCM11, 20, and 40) all share the same sound characteristics, with great-sounding midranges even if they have different types of drivers.
I would just add that once the speakers are resolved, next might be to invest in achieving maximum synergy between the power amplifier and the speakers, as this is the most critical link in the chain.
ATC’s P1 or P2 models are natural choices, though many other powerful amplifiers (delivering, say, 200 W per channel) would also be suitable. It is worth exploring this.
ATC’s P1 or P2 models are natural choices, though many other powerful amplifiers (delivering, say, 200 W per channel) would also be suitable. It is worth exploring this.
Space is the place
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What difference do high mass frames make compared to open frames?
Also if you've not tried putting drum resonance killers under four corners of your speakers instead of felt pads, or blue tack, it's worth trying for the $5 they cost.
Also if you've not tried putting drum resonance killers under four corners of your speakers instead of felt pads, or blue tack, it's worth trying for the $5 they cost.
The amp just needs to be able to deliver the current required by the speaker at its maximum specified SPL - that's all. Plenty of amps available that can do this for most speakers with normal impedance curves.
Waxx
Major Contributor
And as several measurements of this speaker online all show, the impendance is not flat but within reasonable specs, so any modern style amp that can deliver 250-300w or more in 8R will have no problem driving this speaker to it's limits or even beyond. Headroom on amps is important, so i would look for something at the 300-500w (at 8R) range. An Apollon Purifi Eigentakt 1ET9040BA DM would be a very good choice i think (as example, there are plenty others also).
I’m happy with my old Musical Fidelity M6i. It is powerful enough for my ATC speakers, and it has all the functionality I need for my somewhat complex system, containing 2-channel audio, a multichannel system, and a music production chain.
RexrothPigeon
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it is not possible for a power amp and speakers to produce a whole greater than the sum of their parts (synergy). that sort of thinking is what ASR exists to counter.
Good choice, no doubt.
I have always admired a.michaelson work.
His pre/pow combination 3A/P270 served me well for years...
Still...there is a story that, allegedly, atc started making their own hifi amplifiers because some distributors presented their passive speakers with inadequate amplifiers, causing sales of passive models to be below expectations.
Interesting information for atc users, I would say.
If you're going to propose a hypothesis, you need to back it up with a study and some data.
It's also an interesting statement as it flies in the face of so many first hand experiences I've had...
RexrothPigeon
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I'm not. I'm rejecting a claim. If the claimant or you would like to bolster your claim with some evidence (beyond "muh earz"), feel free. Until then, like most things, I won't take seriously the notion that amp-speaker combinations are capable of magic.