RexrothPigeon
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Real voodoo audio hours
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ATC speakers / Monitors
- Thread starter Pearljam5000
- Start date
Depends,
If there's a real audible difference when using them vs not using them
plus, by the look of them they probably won't be in the "snake oil" price category
Decoupling speakers is a major consideration in high end studio builds... I see no reason why it wouldn't be relevant in some domestic settings as well.
I have SCM50s which when placed on budget decoupling devices (chunks of foam etc) actually results in a marked rise in harmonic distortion at the listening position. A friend noticed the same with his SCM20 actives (also for studio work). He might still have some measurements he could send me...
The science behind how to do it correctly is very straightforward if you know a bit of physics. Most of the 'solutions' on the market do no good however. There's even of a video of Ben Lily from ATC talking about how most products out there don't work.
Some links:
Wikipedia - Vibration Isolation
Acoustic Insider YouTube channel - less scientific and more just a practical discussion but the same kinds of things mentioned - you need to know the mass of your speaker system and the 'springiness' of the isolation mechanism in order to make the whole thing work properly.
Gearspace discussion - Thomas of Northward Acoustics talks a bit about what does/doesn't work and some of the challenges you encounter in trying to do this effectively
I have SCM50s which when placed on budget decoupling devices (chunks of foam etc) actually results in a marked rise in harmonic distortion at the listening position. A friend noticed the same with his SCM20 actives (also for studio work). He might still have some measurements he could send me...
The science behind how to do it correctly is very straightforward if you know a bit of physics. Most of the 'solutions' on the market do no good however. There's even of a video of Ben Lily from ATC talking about how most products out there don't work.
Some links:
Wikipedia - Vibration Isolation
Acoustic Insider YouTube channel - less scientific and more just a practical discussion but the same kinds of things mentioned - you need to know the mass of your speaker system and the 'springiness' of the isolation mechanism in order to make the whole thing work properly.
Gearspace discussion - Thomas of Northward Acoustics talks a bit about what does/doesn't work and some of the challenges you encounter in trying to do this effectively
When using massive, heavy stands, I think the point is not to decouple speaker from the stand. Rather, the idea is to firmly stick the speaker to the stand (blue tack balls do a great job of this), so that the speaker and stand become one piece. In this way, the large mass of the stand prevents the speaker from making small movements, which leads to a cleaner sound.
As is usually the case with business like this, results may vary, but it worked for me.
RexrothPigeon
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The only way to know for sure if there's a real audible difference is controlled blind testing.
Snake oil isn't about price. It's about bullshit claims.
RexrothPigeon
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This is only an issue if you are actually hearing rattling or buzzing. If you are not hearing that, then it's pure snake oil and you shouldn't waste any money or time or effort on it.
DSJR
Master Contributor
Blue tac is the work of the devil here!!! - NOT because it doesn't work, but because the stuff gets in the woodgrain on some wooden finishes and is there for life as you can't get the effin' stuff out
Been there and done it. Admittedly, the older ATCs I knew so well, had a smooth finish to their veneered enclosures, but I stand by my little clear feet as forty years later, there's no damage caused to the underside of a now classic speaker enclosureCPC sells them - https://cpc.farnell.com/multicomp-pro/mp2125-cl1-60/bumper-feet-cylindrical-12-7-x/dp/PC02905
These below are what I have, left over from my working days. They cost more so MUST be better
DSJR
Master Contributor
By the way, HFN tested the large £36k SCM100ASE model (still cheap by hi-end standards. the response looks a dogs dinner by ASR standards, but is actually really good by the standards of the cr@p HFN usually measures!
Below, the amp pack which I could swear had a daughter board with the crossovers on (I didn't take much notice I admit). This one looks like the latest all-discrete type which is different from the mk2 boards my own samples had (solid handles but op-amps doing a lot of the initial work). measurements on a later page -
www.hifinews.com
Below, the amp pack which I could swear had a daughter board with the crossovers on (I didn't take much notice I admit). This one looks like the latest all-discrete type which is different from the mk2 boards my own samples had (solid handles but op-amps doing a lot of the initial work). measurements on a later page -
ATC SCM100SE Loudspeaker ATC's Amp Pack
ATC's Amp Pack Chicken or egg, which came first? In practice ATC's MOSFET power amplifiers were initially developed for its professional (active) loudspeakers before being refined into the 'domestic' 100W P1 [HFN Mar '10] and 300W P2 [HFN Mar '17] models. Naturally there's been some to-ing and...
www.hifinews.com
I still have blue Sylomer left over, from a studio I built for a client in Miami in about 2000 - still good. You can literally rest a buildings foundation on it, I have seen it in such applications, when a building is close to train tracks... Amazing stuff.
Yes, but not in atc veneer which is very smooth
I now use exactly the same washers as you between the scm50 and their stands.
The Scm50 should not be attached to the stand, but decoupled with hard rubber (as supplied by atc) or such silicone washers
Yes, Sylomer is a highly effective dampening material, probably the best you can get hold of. It's just important to use the Sylomer with the right density for the application. If it's too stiff for the weight of the loudspeaker it will act as hard feet, as the material doesn’t squeeze enough, and if it's too soft it will also act as hard feet, as the material squeeze too much. With the correct Sylomer, it will hold the weight but at the same time squeeze just enough to work as a spring.
I think @Thomas_A has done some in-depth testing of loudspeaker feet made of Sylomer vs harder materials.
Gregg Hermetech
Member
I have my SCM20ASL Pros on Plaster of Paris filled metal Towersonic stands with the rubber feet (they weigh far more than the monitors themselves), with a 5mm slice of silicon between the monitors and the stands. Sound great and don't budge. I tow them in at ATC's recommended 60 degrees (the triangular Towersonic stands make that very easy to do) to form an equilateral triangle of 255cm per side with my head in the sweet spot. Room is about 66 cubic meters with very high ceilings (classic Victorian era Milanese apartment with parquet flooring). I probably should have employed a good acoustician in to measure the place, but as I said earlier, we'll be moving back to Japan at the end of the year, where I'm sure the dimensions will be much smaller. 
I made heavy duty stands for scm50, same height but 20kg each.
But it was a complete failure. The heavy stands simply took the energy out of the sound and that really bothered me.
The original atc stands for the scm50 work much better.
Sokel
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This one?
Note the 30dB scale and the expansion to 40kHz.
By a normal 50dB scale, it would look more than decent.
In fact, if we normalize this to the same scaling as Amir uses...
That's pretty decent! (understanding that it's a gated measurement and therefore considerably lower resolution than Amir's below ~500hz, of course...)
I would like to see what they're doing below ~200hz. They mention that F6 is 34hz, but that it starts rolling off an octave above that. I am guessing they're aiming for a SBB4 or similar alignment in the low end rather than the more common QB3 - better transient response and a shallower "knee" (i.e. a lower Q) but an earlier roll-off.
Sokel
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Yes, the range should cover 60dB to 90dB of Amir's chart.Agreed that it’s acceptabel, but it’s not as good as the Photoshop work suggests
View attachment 539232
So,
It's still about ... "do they make an audible difference or not", that's all i said, if they don't or make the sound worse it's snake oil regardless of price.
It all depends on the surface the loudspeakers stand on and what resonances are triggered in any given situation. In some cases, it can be inaudible; in others, it can be audible. If it is audible in your case, do you like what it adds to the overall sound, or not?
If someone here thinks that is snake oil, I suggest they try placing their loudspeakers on different surfaces made of different materials and listen for any changes that do to the sound. I’m sure no one will need a blind listening test to hear the changes.
It's all pure physics.
With a hard coupling, the overall mass will change, and the material/surface underneath the loudspeaker will become part of that mass, but if the loudspeaker is completely decoupled from that material/surface underneath it, it will only be affected by its own mass. How audible it is is completely dependent on any given situation. There is no snake oil in this.
Me too - the purpose of a blind listening test is to see if the perceived changes are real. With speaker isolation, supports, stands etc I'd say most of the time they're not real. Unless two stands put the speaker at a different height or speaker was sat on something that is very resonant.
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