ATC speakers / Monitors

[Atc4ever]

That is a good point,
And i honestly don't know

Of course i did not have any measurements available of the other speakers i auditioned either,
so all i CAN say is that, back then based on listening in my own living room and elsewhere (subjective as hell, i know) the ATC's came out winning.

Audition should still be a very important part of the final purchase i think, but if you have measurements beforehand it's easier to separate the chaff from the wheat i guess
it can give you a better directory, find trustworthy independent tests (like Erin's, or Amir's) narrow your choice down to a couple brands or models, and then listen to them
when possible of course!

I mean,... there might be a hundred brands of speakers that are objectively (through measurements) better, as well as worse ones!
problem will always be, that it's utterly impossible to test/audition them all.
Forums like this are a big help to make those choices a bit easier, and not just for speakers.

I would agree with practically everything you said. But I'm still missing something there.
Let's imagine that you are back at that dealer, that you have several pairs of speakers available and you need to decide which one to buy. And let's imagine that you now have the measurements of all the speakers and can interpret them.
So, what are you going to do? How can measurements at that stage help you decide which speaker to buy?

 

[Purité Audio]

You can use measurements if you understand them to weed out poor designs.
Keith

 

[Gregg Hermetech]

Could you give a more in-depth description of why you prefer SCM20 over the SCM25 and the SCM40?

Do you find the S-spec tweeter to sound different from the ones found in the 25s and 40s, or is it mainly the Super Linear mid/bass driver that does it for you?

It was a few years ago now so hard to remember, but pretty sure it was the overall clarity in the mid range that I preferred on the SL models, which I am guessing is the SL bass/mid driver, but could be that in combo with the tweeter. IMO the most critical band is the mids, the main vocal/instrument range, which is generally what I focus on when assessing new gear, and I think this is what shone out with the SL models when I was comparing.

As far as I remember the only difference in the ATC tweeters is more to do with power handling and reliability than sound quality. The Pro model (S spec?) tweeters can stay louder, longer, before crapping out, is how I remember reading about it, rather than any difference in sound quality. I never push mine that hard/loud anyway.

 

[dfuller]

So, what are you going to do? How can measurements at that stage help you decide which speaker to buy?

Measurements are best used to correlate with what you in particular like. I know I prefer speakers with a relatively narrow beam and slightly relaxed top end, so I have Neumanns, but also like D&D 8Cs a lot. I suspect I'd like the Ascilab speakers a lot but I've yet to get ears on them.

 

[DSJR]

What would cause excess phase rotation in the SCM40, that could have an audible effect, while not affecting crossover point summation? I expect the latter to work well in that speaker.

All I can say is that the ATC mid domes are used right to their response limits and said limits will vary slightly from sample to sample as the doping will inevitably vary to a small degree. The active crossovers in the 50 upwards certainly (maybe the 40A as well) has phase as well as level matching to best blend the drivers (I had a service sheet explaining how to adjust this on repair/replacement of drivers.

P.S. The dear, now deceased friend of mine who purchased my 100As, sent away for the SL main drivers. ATC duly sent them along, together with humongous new L-shaped ports (looked like small gutter pipes No way did either of us feel confident to do the work (crossovers also needing tweaking as above), so he took a trip to the factory (we could do this here back then) and they did it for him (not sure they charged him either, but it was a long time ago and they kept the old drivers, maybe as payment?). He felt the mid bass and mids were a little clearer, the former maybe due to the different port tuning and the latter maybe the improved SL spec. Even the non-SL versions were better in active form (I vividly remember a pair of 100s being upgraded and the before and after comparisons at various volumes and obviously subjectivist impressions of the 'differences,' but back then it was only £1500 to do it plus transport! - the client had a Revox integrated amp with preamp outs, which he used subsequently). In the UK, ATC used Amtrack, which was a good courier for them, bearing in mind the VERY heavy boxes and we often took speakers down for update or whatever and interested clients too, almost all of whom bought the speakers, so worth it. All changed now but they're good memories and that kind of servicedoes increase loyalty... There were less than twenty dealers then, all independent and smallish concerns.

 

[goat76]

What is the general verdict on the Mid/Bass Linear Driver in the 19/20, has ATC been able to achieve the qualities of their mid-dome driver, even when that driver has the double duty of being both a mid driver and a bass driver in the same unit?

 

[Atc4ever]

I've had two pairs of SCM20A SL Pros. The first pair I bought second hand (I was the third owner) in 2011 as a friend sold them to me for a good price. One woofer had an issue and as they were still under the (6 year?) transferrable warranty, ATC fixed them for free. They had the metal "Darth Vader" enclosures and the Vifa tweeters. I loved them but I traded them in for a new pair of the Mk IIs (square MDF cabinets, in house tweeters) a few years ago, as they were showing signs of age, and the Mk IIs were a definite improvement, especially in the clarity of the high end.

I use them for everything. I've been a mastering engineer since 2009, so work, TV, PC, streaming, gaming, movies, blurays, DVDs, vinyl, recording/playback/mixing guitar, bass, drum machines and synths etc. The hub comprises a 55" monitor, the ATCs, desktop PC, an RME ADI Pro 2/4 SE interface and a Rega RP6 turntable. I still love the ATCs. I'd like a pair of the SCM50A SL Pros and/or the SCS70 Pro sub at some point, but I don't think I have large enough room dimensions for that right now, and we will be moving back to Japan soon, where the room will likely be smaller.

Sorry I don't have any measurements either, so my subjective opinions will have to do (I can see them running for cover...) but the main reason I dig them is that I trust them to give me the truth more than a lot of other monitors I have heard. They let me work quickly and efficiently and just blend into the background. They are super reliable and sound similar at all volume levels. I've mastered thousands of albums over the last 15 years or so and clients are happy too, for whatever that's worth. I love their low distortion. I'd never state there aren't better sounding/better performing/better measuring monitors out there, but they work for me so I'm sticking with them. In a professional context, reliability and speed of workflow count for a lot.

When upgrading I deliberately avoided the 25s and 40s due to their lack of SL spec. I heard them all at the dealers (FunkyJunk in Milan) back to back with the 20s and preferred the 20s (and 50s...), but it's hard to gauge when it's not your own space.

It's interesting to read this thread, there is obviously a lot of love and hate for the brand. It's pretty divisive and at times feels too confrontational for me. I couldn't care less about measurements which is why I don't hang here very much, but Branko was interested in hearing other users opinions so here was my two penneth!

Interesting post all the way!
I remember well the scm20A pro in the cast aluminum cabinet. I think the baffle was made of mediapan. A hifi buddy of mine had one. A small speaker that weighs over 30 kg and is transported in flight suitcases. It really looked spectacular.
But, more than anything, I liked its sound: great clarity never heard before.
My friend didn't particularly like the speakers and I didn't have the money to buy them. The speakers went to Sweden and the friend bought the avantgarde trio omega G2! "something completely different"! as would monty python said.

As I mentioned, I have used atc scm20 passive for over 20 years. At one point it seemed to me that the tweeters started to lose energy (vifa). Vifa stopped making that model a long time ago, so I bought replacements from atc, as a plug and play replacement. I don't remember the brand. An that time atc was in trouble with tweeters. They changed the supplier and new tweeters couldn't fit vifa's opening.
Well, replacements came, they looked cheap and they were cheap.
Their front plate was made of thin sheet metal, where vifa had 5mm cast iron. I couldn't look upon my beloved scm20, so sad.
Luckily, replacements performed so poor that I returned the old Vifa and lived happily ever after.

I find it very interesting that atc put the scm20 and scm40 in the same price bracket, so, atc treats them as equal speakers in terms of value.
But, it is obvious that they are aimed at a different type of customer.

 

[Atc4ever]

... I know I prefer speakers with a relatively narrow beam and slightly relaxed top end...

I also know what I prefer.
After so long in hifi, it seems that I have trained my ears to "measure" the sound and brain to decide what I am looking for.

I don't mind measurements, good for those who can read them, respect to those rare who measure honestly, but I personally have zero interest in them.

For narrowing choice of components, measurements maybe of help, I get it, although such approach doesn't look particulary helpfull to me.
There are many factors that will narrow down the choice.
Too often, we do not buy components we wish to buy but the ones we are able to buy.
We don't have much choice anyway.

 

[Tovarich007]

We don't have much choice anyway.

I'm rather OK with your point of view, though I appreciate good independent thorough measurements, but for the last sentence how how can you write we don't have much choice ? In every category, for almost any budget level, there are hundreds of products available.

Perhaps we have too much choice in this over crowded market, which is anyway sparce of real useful innovations, but just full of technical and commercial trends.

 

[Atc4ever]

I'm rather OK with your point of view, though I appreciate good independent thorough measurements, but for the last sentence how how can you write we don't have much choice ? In every category, for almost any budget level, there are hundreds of products available.

Perhaps we have too much choice in this over crowded market, which is anyway sparce of real useful innovations, but just full of technical and commercial trends.

There are thousands of car models on the market. But when you need to buy one, I bet you'll only consider a few.

 

[Blockader]

Learning to read speaker measurements takes years, not just the curves, but the limits of the research behind them, and how the numbers map onto what you actually hear in a room. What it buys you is prediction. Over time you get better at hearing a speaker's measurements and knowing how it'll sound, both on its own and in a given room. The predictions are never perfect but they land within 80-90% of how the speaker actually sounds, and that's enough to work with. If the measurements predict well and a real listen confirms it, that's enough to buy.

This is why I trust it over 'just listening.' The same speaker can sound more different in two rooms than two speakers do in one, so 'what I liked' and 'what the room did' have to be pulled apart and without audio science you can't. A wide dispersion speaker in a narrow room sounds muddy and echoey, but that's the room piling on early reflections, not the speaker distorting(IMD), even though the two color the sound almost the same way. The science teaches you those signatures: a low ceiling, a deep room, a reflective front wall each color sound differently, and all of them differ from IMD or distortion or just "bad drivers". Once you can hear the difference, you can subtract the room and judge the speaker on its own which is exactly what makes the prediction possible.

 

[RedVikingHood]

Learning to read speaker measurements takes years, not just the curves, but the limits of the research behind them, and how the numbers map onto what you actually hear in a room. What it buys you is prediction. Over time you get better at hearing a speaker's measurements and knowing how it'll sound, both on its own and in a given room. The predictions are never perfect but they land within 80-90% of how the speaker actually sounds, and that's enough to work with. If the measurements predict well and a real listen confirms it, that's enough to buy.

This is why I trust it over 'just listening.' The same speaker can sound more different in two rooms than two speakers do in one, so 'what I liked' and 'what the room did' have to be pulled apart and without audio science you can't. A wide dispersion speaker in a narrow room sounds muddy and echoey, but that's the room piling on early reflections, not the speaker distorting(IMD), even though the two color the sound almost the same way. The science teaches you those signatures: a low ceiling, a deep room, a reflective front wall each color sound differently, and all of them differ from IMD or distortion or just "bad drivers". Once you can hear the difference, you can subtract the room and judge the speaker on its own which is exactly what makes the prediction possible.

In a proffesional control room, you often have an exceptionally well treated room which is measured with the speakers, and engineers are not only listening to music but work with various elements of music production through the monitors. This goes beyond just listening and reading speaker measurements.

 

[AdrianusG]

Learning to read speaker measurements takes years, not just the curves, but the limits of the research behind them, and how the numbers map onto what you actually hear in a room. What it buys you is prediction. Over time you get better at hearing a speaker's measurements and knowing how it'll sound, both on its own and in a given room. The predictions are never perfect but they land within 80-90% of how the speaker actually sounds, and that's enough to work with. If the measurements predict well and a real listen confirms it, that's enough to buy.

This is why I trust it over 'just listening.' The same speaker can sound more different in two rooms than two speakers do in one, so 'what I liked' and 'what the room did' have to be pulled apart and without audio science you can't. A wide dispersion speaker in a narrow room sounds muddy and echoey, but that's the room piling on early reflections, not the speaker distorting(IMD), even though the two color the sound almost the same way. The science teaches you those signatures: a low ceiling, a deep room, a reflective front wall each color sound differently, and all of them differ from IMD or distortion or just "bad drivers". Once you can hear the difference, you can subtract the room and judge the speaker on its own which is exactly what makes the prediction possible.

". The science teaches you those signatures: a low ceiling, a deep room, a reflective front wall each color sound differently, and all of them differ from IMD or distortion or just "bad drivers".

So yes, measurements are important,

But from your quote, even with good measurements there still remain a lot of variables (much more than say with Amps ; DAC's ; CD players) that can make or break the sound in your particular situation.

What i conclude for myself, and i stand by it!, that at the time (2018), given the choices I had, I made the correct decision, from the speakers I tested them against
(I believe they were Spendor ; Gauder and Harbets), all roughly in the same price category give or take a few hundred Euro's + or -, to me the ATC's sounded best to my ears in my living room and at the dealer, i have no buyer regrets at all.
Would i buy them again at this moment, NO, but that has more to do with current price than anything else.

 

[RedVikingHood]

". The science teaches you those signatures: a low ceiling, a deep room, a reflective front wall each color sound differently, and all of them differ from IMD or distortion or just "bad drivers".

So yes, measurements are important,

But from your quote, even with good measurements there still remain a lot of variables (much more than say with Amps ; DAC's ; CD players) that can make or break the sound in your particular situation.

What i conclude for myself, and i stand by it!, that at the time (2018), given the choices I had, I made the correct decision, from the speakers I tested them against
(I believe they were Spendor ; Gauder and Harbets), all roughly in the same price category give or take a few hundred Euro's + or -, to me the ATC's sounded best to my ears in my living room and at the dealer, i have no buyer regrets at all.
Would i buy them again at this moment, NO, but that has more to do with current price than anything else.

I just explained to you that in professional circumstances the speakers are measured with the room. This has nothing to do with your decision to buy ATC. I am not questioning your choice and I don't care as it has nothing to do with me. I'm just explaining to you the difference between measurements and auditioning within the realms of hifi, and the professional world in which more effort goes into room acoustics (driven by the specific measurements) and listening in ways that go way beyond HiFi listening.

 

[Ultrasonic]

What i conclude for myself, and i stand by it!, that at the time (2018), given the choices I had, I made the correct decision, from the speakers I tested them against

I feel you did too and personally I made the decision to buy a second hand pair in November last year so don't rush to assume you made any sort of mistake IMHO. Enjoy the speakers you have .

 

[Ultrasonic]

I just explained to you that in professional circumstances the speakers are measured with the room. This has nothing to do with your decision to buy ATC. I am not questioning your choice and I don't care as it has nothing to do with me. I'm just explaining to you the difference between measurements and auditioning within the realms of hifi, and the professional world in which more effort goes into room acoustics (driven by the specific measurements) and listening in ways that go way beyond HiFi listening.

I don't really think anyone assesses speakers for domestic use based on in-room measurements. The measurements generally discussed here are anechoic. I'm actually somewhat surprised if this is actually different in professional audio but I take your word for it.

 

[AdrianusG]

I just explained to you that in professional circumstances the speakers are measured with the room. This has nothing to do with your decision to buy ATC. I am not questioning your choice and I don't care as it has nothing to do with me. I'm just explaining to you the difference between measurements and auditioning within the realms of hifi, and the professional world in which more effort goes into room acoustics (driven by the specific measurements) and listening in ways that go way beyond HiFi listening.

Hey,

No worries, It's all good, my reaction was actually after Blockader's comment.

 

[AdrianusG]

I feel you did too and personally I made the decision to buy a second hand pair in November last year so don't rush to assume you made any sort of mistake IMHO. Enjoy the speakers you have .

Thanks, I am doing just that Daily

 

[RedVikingHood]

I don't really think anyone assesses speakers for domestic use based on in-room measurements. The measurements generally discussed here are anechoic. I'm actually somewhat surprised if this is actually different in professional audio but I take your word for it.

The speaker manufacturer (not always because of DSP) measures their speakers in an anechoic chamber. once fitted in the control room, the room is measured with the monitors as we are interested in the system as a whole. The measurements will dictate any further acoustic treatment that is deemed necessary to reach the desired objective. And of course, the listening skills of the recording and mix engineer are much more honed and nuanced than the HiFi enthusiast's.

remember I was replying to somebody who was making an argument for measurements over just listening. I'm just pointing out the fact (after all we're talking about ATC) in the professional realm there are additional layers of consideration.

 

[Ultrasonic]

The speaker manufacturer (not always because of DSP) measures their speakers in an anechoic chamber. once fitted in the control room, the room is measured with the monitors as we are interested in the system as a whole. The measurements will dictate any further acoustic treatment that is deemed necessary to reach the desired objective. And of course, the listening skills of the recording and mix engineer are much more honed and nuanced than the HiFi enthusiast's.

remember I was replying to somebody who was making an argument for measurements over just listening. I'm just pointing out the fact (after all we're talking about ATC) in the professional realm there are additional layers of consideration.

For context I have early reflection point absorbers and bass traps in a domestic setting so it's not exclusively a professional environment that is different in this regard, although the impact of the results is obviously more important to you.

And yes, measurements and optimisation in the room the speakers are used in is absolutely important/useful and is very much something I do myself. What I'd thought you were referring to was using in-room measurements to make an initial purchasing decision.