ATC speakers / Monitors

[dfuller]

Loudspeakers are entirely characterised by their measurements.
Yes use measurements to weed our coloured designs, personally I wouldn’t purchase speakers that do not have a full set of measurements, but many manufacturers do not provide measurements ( even those with expensive robotic measuring equipment ) .
Keith

While this is true, the measurements taken are often either inadequate or poorly interpreted.

 

[Purité Audio]

That of course would change once customers demand comprehensive measurements rather than back story.
Keith

 

[Branko]

Loudspeakers are entirely characterised by their measurements.
Yes use measurements to weed our coloured designs, personally I wouldn’t purchase speakers that do not have a full set of measurements, but many manufacturers do not provide measurements ( even those with expensive robotic measuring equipment ) .
Keith

I don't know if this has been mentioned here before, but there are several interviews on the net with Ben Lilly, lead engineer and technical sales manager from atc, where he talks about his views on measurements.

In short, Ben Lilly and ATC are not hiding data because they are bad, but because they believe that the quality of their speakers is proven through decades of tradition, hand-crafting drivers and portability of the mix (translation) in professional work, and not through competition in publishing factory charts.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Ben Lilly, lead engineer and technical sales manager [...] ATC are not hiding data because they are bad, but because

You know what they say: always believe what salesmen tell you!

 

[Purité Audio]

I would be genuinely interested to know exactly why some manufacturers do not publish measurements, even when they have the most accurate measurement apparatus.
Keith

 

[thewas]

I would be genuinely interested to know exactly why some manufacturers do not publish measurements, even when they have the most accurate measurement apparatus.

Why would someone publish measurements that are inferior to some of the competition ones?

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Why would someone publish measurements that are inferior to some of the competition ones?

That’s the only logical reason, agreed

 

[goat76]

Why would someone publish measurements that are inferior to some of the competition ones?

That is a possibility, combined with amateurs who tend to exaggerate what they see in the measurements.

ATC speakers already measure well enough to be considered neutral speakers. It's possible they could be marginally better with some technical updates, but those will likely drown out by much larger things to solve, like room acoustics and compromises in speaker setup in a real listening environment.

Let’s see if ATC in the coming years makes some updates to their speaker lineup, now that they have their own Klippel NFS. Ease of serviceability is obviously a very important factor for them as well, which also goes into the design decisions for a manufacturer who mostly aims at studio use.

 

[thewas]

That is a possibility, combined with amateurs who tend to exaggerate what they see in the measurements.

Or they can also impress amateurs who cannot really read measurements by selling "loudspeakers designed with a NFS".

ATC speakers already measure well enough to be considered neutral speakers. It's possible they could be marginally technically with some technical updates

That is your personal perception, some others may find for example their directivity can be significantly improved, but on the other hand why update something that their fans/buyers already worship?

 

[Ultrasonic]

That is your personal perception, some others may find for example their directivity can be significantly improved,

This has probably be discussed elsewhere so please point me to it if it has, but is directivity potentially less significant in the context of early-reflection-point acoustic treatment (as typical in studios, as well as a minority of home listening spaces) vs untreated rooms? The former is obviously a huge chunk of ATC's market...

 

[Pearljam5000]

If it ain't broken don't fix it
Why would they deal with measurements and make new models, new drivers etc
If their monitors sell like hot cakes?

 

[thewas]

This has probably be discussed elsewhere so please point me to it if it has, but is directivity potentially less significant in the context of early-reflection-point acoustic treatment (as typical in studios, as well as a minority of home listening spaces) vs untreated rooms? The former is obviously a huge chunk of ATCs market...

Yes, in absorptive environments the influence is smaller so the question is how good is enough and there will never be a unique answer to that.

 

[Branko]

I would be genuinely interested to know exactly why some manufacturers do not publish measurements, even when they have the most accurate measurement apparatus.
Keith

Ben Lilly just gave a straight answer to that.

They may have acquired high-end measuring equipment to continue to improve their products and not so that everyone can have fun interpreting their measurements.

 

[Leeken]

I would be genuinely interested to know exactly why some manufacturers do not publish measurements, even when they have the most accurate measurement apparatus.
Keith

Because 99.9% of people buying speakers can’t read the measurements correctly anyway??? And the other 0.1% are just beard scratching weirdos

 

[DSJR]

In short, Ben Lilly and ATC are not hiding data because they are bad, but because they believe that the quality of their speakers is proven through decades of tradition, hand-crafting drivers and portability of the mix (translation) in professional work, and not through competition in publishing factory charts.

Billy Woodman in his day designing and owning the ATC company, was quite happy to give chapter and verse on his designs, what and why they did what they did. He even had 'white papers' as part of the product promotion leaflets explaining things. Sure, he tended to feel his way was the only one and he bristled when other good small drivers came along (in the case I remember, a small Focal driver that at least equalled the heavily built SCM 10 driver and costing significantly less), I get that, but the 100% dedication he and electronics designer/director Tim Isaac had to the brand and products they made, was palpable and deserving of high respect. I've only met Ben a couple of times at local dealer shows and he's definitely a friendly and knowledgeable bloke (as is the UK rep I've spoken to on occasion), but obviously it's different now with the domestic market I suspect, more important on the profitable big-ticket models (a sale's a sale, whether active or passive).

Having said the above, if ATC now have a full Klippel suite, I expect some tweaks to be forthcoming, refining what's there and improving/updating directivity and so on...

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Because 99.9% of people buying speakers can’t read the measurements correctly anyway??? And the other 0.1% are just beard scratching weirdos

Why would someone who believes this kind of bullshit spend time on Audio Science Review?

 

[Leeken]

Why would someone who believes this kind of bullshit spend time on Audio Science Review?

Maybe a over exaggeration on my behalf,99.8 can’t read them,0.1 can,0.1 are beard scratching weirdos,just look at every review Amirm puts up for the latest best dac and you’ll have more people thinking they can hear a difference between 120db and 123 db sinad than is right in any scientific world.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

look at every review Amirm puts up for the latest best dac and you’ll have more people thinking they can hear a difference between 120db and 123 db sinad than is right in any scientific world.

I just looked at a few and didn't see this, can you support this contention or are you just talking shit like your previous post? If you're just making big incendiary attacks that you can't actually stand behind, I'd rather not waste my time with a bad faith poster.

 

[Mort]

But we have to accept and respect that.

Actually we don't, any more than we accept astrology. Your personal preference stance is anti-science.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Actually we don't, any more than we accept astrology. Your personal preference stance is anti-science.

This is the full quote:

On the other hand, there is a vast majority of hifi users, who have different approach to the same subject. They are not interested in any measurements and pick devices based solely on their personal impression of the sound. They are not looking for "neutral" sound.
And that is their personal choice and nothing more.
But we have to accept and respect that.

This is not remotely on par with astrology, as ultimately having a system they like the sound of is what matters. Also, particularly when it comes to speakers and an individual room the jump from measured data to what may be enjoyed most is not at all trivial, and especially isn't for those (reasonably) not interested in trying to learn to understand what the measured data may be able to tell them.

Accepting and respecting the choices of others in this regard is absolutely what I do, and do not consider this remotely "anti-science" either.