That’s good going - at least 8 posts in a row about B&W in an ATC thread!
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ATC speakers / Monitors
- Thread starter Pearljam5000
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I agree that the properties are different but I don't believe the Kerf cabinets produce poor or just average cabinets when the kerf cuts are filled with epoxy over glues with wood fiber additive or similar.
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It was about cabinet making more than anything else which was being discussed prior to B&W's approach was brought up. I don't see where the thread was highjacked?
ATC cabinets are very simple in comparison with B&W. From manufacturing perspective B&W plywood cabinets could be more expensive to make than Magico cast aluminium. Now if we take ATC midrange driver and put it into ceramic head like B&W, that will be a next level.
I had thought the point was prompted by reference to the new EL50 cabinet pictured previously which is very different to most ATCs. I agree that regular ATCs are surely simpler, noting that all the Entry range is curved on the sides, like the SCM40 pictured above.
LEA-Ebenisterie
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They are totally different, as said before, B&W method is quite complicated a 1 - they make their own plywood so it's at least 20-25 sheets of 0.6/1/1.2 or 1.5mm thick veneer, also crossed 90° , 2- the curve ends up in negative angle on the back, and you need a 4 part mould to make them (as shown in their video, they asked for custom gluing hydrauli presses), two sides, one front, and the middle one, you'll need also to slide the middle one as, as said the angle ends up nagative to you can't un-mould it from behind :
I make 11 layers for "La Maison du Haut Parleur" in France for the "Aéria Système", similar shape as SCM40 MkIII ones, they're quite simple, mould/counter-mould but it still takes time, and I veneer after.
B&W method is longer, and on the EL50 it's kinda the same one, i'd personally make 2 halves and then two grooves and false tongue or either Lamello P20 or either Festool Domino to assemble them together, all manual, with portative routers, and glue them with straps, still a long process as you'll need to have raw sheets glued, then when un-moulding, you'll need to cut them perfectly parallel to the center of the mould, so either CNC or manual cut, both long processes.
Also you'll need special glue for that, classic vinyllic glue is too flexible to keep the perfectly right shape so either Vinyllic + Additive or Kleiberit 864 (can't take Polyurethane as it inflates, so veneer + inflating glue = big problems)
Either you've never done that and you don't realize all the process behind, or either you're a MASSIVELY trained cabinet maker to state it as simple work. I've been a cabinet maker for 13 years, and I calculate time (mould build, I'd make 2 + all gluing process - 2 gluings as only two moulds) you'll need a rough 20+ hours of work just to make that I think, and even more if you have bracing positionned and glued in grooves like I would do personally for even better structural handling.
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I get that and understand what you're saying however we were talking about diy of the cabinets. Also, I believe I stated it wasn't that hard for someone in the industry, not that it is simple.
LEA-Ebenisterie
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DiY doesn't mean bad quality/unprofessionnal, it can, (probably is in most of cases ?) but not always.
Look at Troels Gravesen, Imho he's doing things mostly with true cabinet making "rules"/methods.
Well, even for someone in the industry it can be fairly complicated, if you take a look at nowadays people in the "industry", they're more focused on fitting/modern furniture than complicated/curved ones, so the persons able to do this are mostly Cabinet Makers or either truely methodic/carthesian and/or research-focused kind of people (from whatever job they do daily), Imho. Nowadays you can find tutorials for nearly everything, so for someone skillfull with his hands, it's do-able.
As also said, Kerf Method is not a good method for structural acoustical cabinets, except may be if you fill the grooves with two-components material, but that'd be interesting to measure if there's no difference though. You can do it, but if you want something efficient, better just make straight angled sides.
My little story about atc :
In 1996 a friend of mine and I bought atc speakers, he got the scm20 and I got the scm10.
At that time, if I am not mistaken, atc offered only 6 speaker models : scm10, 20, 50, 100, 200 and 300.
After a few years, I bought a scm20 from him, and had it for the next 20+ years.
As I love hifi, in all those years various speakers have come and gone (some were very good indeed !) but the scm20 has remained.
Until last year when I got a scm50psl, made in 2019, with current production drivers.
It's a speaker that feels like it was made for me...like when you go to a tailor to make you a custom suit.
I'm sure the sound and price of atc speakers won't appeal to everyone, but as far as I'm concerned, I found what I was looking for.
In 1996 a friend of mine and I bought atc speakers, he got the scm20 and I got the scm10.
At that time, if I am not mistaken, atc offered only 6 speaker models : scm10, 20, 50, 100, 200 and 300.
After a few years, I bought a scm20 from him, and had it for the next 20+ years.
As I love hifi, in all those years various speakers have come and gone (some were very good indeed !) but the scm20 has remained.
Until last year when I got a scm50psl, made in 2019, with current production drivers.
It's a speaker that feels like it was made for me...like when you go to a tailor to make you a custom suit.
I'm sure the sound and price of atc speakers won't appeal to everyone, but as far as I'm concerned, I found what I was looking for.
I heard new EL50 at AXPONA. I cannot say that it sounds significantly better than my 100ASL. When I mentioned that to a rep, who was in the room, he agreed that difference is very small and in some aspects 100 model can be better due to bigger bass driver. EL50 price is almost $100K. Though EL50 does _look_ impressive.
I really like the look of the EL50!
Compared to my year 2010 50aslt it has:
- ATC tweeters
- updated amps
- curved less diffracting cabinet
- 10x the price (maybe 4-5x if adjusted for inflation)
I understand the EL150 is discontinued.
Would be great if they made an EL100
I really dislike the look of the rectangular specials (50, 100, 150)
Compared to my year 2010 50aslt it has:
- ATC tweeters
- updated amps
- curved less diffracting cabinet
- 10x the price (maybe 4-5x if adjusted for inflation)
I understand the EL150 is discontinued.
Would be great if they made an EL100
I really dislike the look of the rectangular specials (50, 100, 150)
Some thoughts on the sound of the scm50
VERSATILITY is the first word that comes to mind when I think of the scm50.
Many speakers can do something very good, and other things not so. Such speakers are good for a certain type of music or listeners. For me, that's a serious drawback because I listen to a wide variety of music.
The scm50, on the other hand, provides an balanced quality across just about anything you listen.
Whether you're listening loudly or quietly, a meter or five meters away, whether you're sitting in the exact center or anywhere in the room (or outside the room), regardless of the genre of music or recording quality, the scm50 relentlessly, unstoppably, authoritatively delivers music faithful to the signal source.
As a car with 6 cylinders and 4x4 drive - they will resolve any situation and drive you wherever you want.
With the scm50, time flies, you don't even notice the hours go by while listening, you just want to listen more...
To me, as a music lover, no recording sounds bad or unlistenable on scm50.
If something sounds bad, it's because I don't like music or performance, it's hardly production or scm50 fault.
The recording or production is as it is, it is someone's creation, someone's work, no need to worry about it, what's important is emotional message that the music carries, and the scm50 are able to convey it without fail.
Only in recent years, scm50 are more recognised as a hifi, home speaker. Before that, they were considered, and stll are today, the studio standard for decades.
I guess there is a growing community of hifi enthusiasts who want their music to be reproduced as possible to how it came out of the studio, without adding or subtracting anything.
From my experience, audio devices that do not have their own strong, recognizable sound character, but behave like chameleons, changing their character according to the music they play, such devices are replaced the least often.
Further on, many listeners want their speakers to blow them away with this and that. And it's ok, why not...
But the scm50 delights me precisely because they doesn't do that.
Scm50 can do everything, but they don't throw it in your face, they doesn't higlight anything, doesn't create an false and unnecessary spectacle.
Scm50 simply has a job to do.
VERSATILITY is the first word that comes to mind when I think of the scm50.
Many speakers can do something very good, and other things not so. Such speakers are good for a certain type of music or listeners. For me, that's a serious drawback because I listen to a wide variety of music.
The scm50, on the other hand, provides an balanced quality across just about anything you listen.
Whether you're listening loudly or quietly, a meter or five meters away, whether you're sitting in the exact center or anywhere in the room (or outside the room), regardless of the genre of music or recording quality, the scm50 relentlessly, unstoppably, authoritatively delivers music faithful to the signal source.
As a car with 6 cylinders and 4x4 drive - they will resolve any situation and drive you wherever you want.
With the scm50, time flies, you don't even notice the hours go by while listening, you just want to listen more...
To me, as a music lover, no recording sounds bad or unlistenable on scm50.
If something sounds bad, it's because I don't like music or performance, it's hardly production or scm50 fault.
The recording or production is as it is, it is someone's creation, someone's work, no need to worry about it, what's important is emotional message that the music carries, and the scm50 are able to convey it without fail.
Only in recent years, scm50 are more recognised as a hifi, home speaker. Before that, they were considered, and stll are today, the studio standard for decades.
I guess there is a growing community of hifi enthusiasts who want their music to be reproduced as possible to how it came out of the studio, without adding or subtracting anything.
From my experience, audio devices that do not have their own strong, recognizable sound character, but behave like chameleons, changing their character according to the music they play, such devices are replaced the least often.
Further on, many listeners want their speakers to blow them away with this and that. And it's ok, why not...
But the scm50 delights me precisely because they doesn't do that.
Scm50 can do everything, but they don't throw it in your face, they doesn't higlight anything, doesn't create an false and unnecessary spectacle.
Scm50 simply has a job to do.
Yep makes sense - they trend neutral, they're low distortion, they have plenty of headroom.
In their literature atc introduced the term "neutral fidelity"
That term accurately describes the character of the atc devices...both speakers and electronics.
Also, because atc gear try not to add their personal touch to the sound, they are easy to fit into various combinations with each other as well as with other brands.
...anyway, I wouldn't want to sound like an advertisement for atc, because I'm not.
These are only my subjective (are there any other) experiences with the company of which I am a user for 30 years now.