ATC speakers / Monitors

[DSJR]

I definitely prefer the look of classic-style ATC speakers, but I think you are exaggerating a lot when you call it fugly, especially when there are so many loudspeakers out there that must be considered way more ugly than that. I think it's quite good-looking in a more general sense, but I don't think it looks the way I see loudspeakers from ATC.

I think it's nice that they provide special edition models for those who are interested in such things, even if that isn't a thing for me personally, or maybe I just don't have the economy for anything like that.

Nah, it's a bling-box with ATC on the front and priced accordingly! Form almost before function, especially the price they're selling for! I mean, the SCM 100SE is another shiny odd looking rectangular confection, but as well as being a better speaker if the standard 100ASL is anything to go by, it is or was, cheaper than the EL50, which I say again, is FIVE TIMES the price of the stand-mounted 50ASLs!

I'm sure it's the carcass which really sosts, as I don't know of many speaker-box makers in the UK now (Timberworx seemingly got worse and then pulled out of OEM supply altogether, according to an artisan speaker maker I know well). It was suggested that ATC now make their own carcasses, but I have no personal knowledge of that.

 

[LEA-Ebenisterie]

Nah, it's a bling-box with ATC on the front and priced accordingly! Form almost before function, especially the price they're selling for! I mean, the SCM 100SE is another shiny odd looking rectangular confection, but as well as being a better speaker if the standard 100ASL is anything to go by, it is or was, cheaper than the EL50, which I say again, is FIVE TIMES the price of the stand-mounted 50ASLs!

I'm sure it's the carcass which really sosts, as I don't know of many speaker-box makers in the UK now (Timberworx seemingly got worse and then pulled out of OEM supply altogether, according to an artisan speaker maker I know well). It was suggested that ATC now make their own carcasses, but I have no personal knowledge of that.

So a rectangle box has more cachet than some more complicated made one to you ? Fair enough, that's your point of view. But as for me, I prefer more far fetched designs than a basic rectangle box, sorry.

As a cabinet maker, I also know it gets really tricky and time consuming when it comes to make curved cabinets, there are lots of techniques, but all of them take much more time than making flat 90° angled faces. Also the veneer gluing on that kind of parts is totally tricky. So I find it normal for it to be more expensive. 5 times, you sure ? in France the 50ASL standmount is 20k€, i've heard these EL50 would be around 50k€ right ? It's more 2.5 times. 30k€ difference is 300 hours without material delta at 100€ / h of labour. I agree it's a bit too much, but that might include pricing of R&D, for this project and future projects ? I don't know, but obviously everyone in DiY environment is taking this as craziness, but think of it with an other point of view please. And ask yourself how much a Troels Gravesen design would sell for with same materials he used on his website, if they were all non-DiY company, but for a 3 way tower, from my calculations, they would easily get from 15 to 20k€ range for some designs, and much more the bigger ones.

As far as I know, the cabinet making part of ATC is done around 20 to 50 miles from where they make electronics and assembly.

 

[goat76]

As far as I know, the cabinet making part of ATC is done around 20 to 50 miles from where they make electronics and assembly.

I remember seeing on their Instagram that they relocated their cabinet factory closer to their HQ last summer.

 

[Pearljam5000]

In the video he explains that the new cabinet has less diffraction, improved dispersion, and improved imaging

 

[RobL]

I would say that 50K for LIMITED release is not much at all

Is it $50K per unit or pair?
TAS says Us pricing is $100k/pair:

 

[Mart68]

And ask yourself how much a Troels Gravesen design would sell for with same materials he used on his website, if they were all non-DiY company,

Exactly - retail price must be at least ten times the bill of materials. Possibly as much as twenty times if not a mass-market product.

Even allowing for some economy of scale, big speakers with fancy drivers have to be twenty grand plus at the selling point or you'll be out of business quite quickly.

The only exception is a one man band, working from his own house/garage, where his overhead is minimal. People I've known who do that have costed their time and worked out they're on less than minimum wage ($15/hour in UK).

 

[Pearljam5000]

@RobL

 

[LEA-Ebenisterie]

Exactly - retail price must be at least ten times the bill of materials. Possibly as much as twenty times if not a mass-market product.

Even allowing for some economy of scale, big speakers with fancy drivers have to be twenty grand plus at the selling point or you'll be out of business quite quickly.

The only exception is a one man band, working from his own house/garage, where his overhead is minimal. People I've known who do that have costed their time and worked out they're on less than minimum wage ($15/hour in UK).

$15 is the hour paid, the hour sold to a client is at least 6 times more (because you combine all your charges : sharpening of your tools & their maintenance, your electric/water bill in your workshop, its rent, a bit more to continue to buy better tools etc...)

In France, depending on where you live, hour sold is in general around 60€ Without VAT, can be a bit less, but generally more.

 

[DSJR]

So a rectangle box has more cachet than some more complicated made one to you ? Fair enough, that's your point of view. But as for me, I prefer more far fetched designs than a basic rectangle box, sorry.

Nothing to do with cachet I think. Other speakers can do quite well with flat fronts Neumann and Genelec seem able to, Neumann for under £9000pr inc VAT as well, but I grew up with large flat-baffle boxes and never felt lacking in the imagery department and said Neumanns aren't pretty in the slightest, although by all accounts they do the business in music reproduction, which I personally find more important than ever.

I'll have to concede defeat here. What I regard as proper 50ASLs are twelve grand in UK money (not the silly tower version done for domestic audiophile happiness I reckon - oops, I've done it again So okay, the EL50s are FOUR times that - apologies for that error.

Best get me coat and disappear from this, as I'm seriously turning into a grumpy old sod now where high end style and pricing is concerned.

 

[Avp1]

$15 is the hour paid, the hour sold to a client is at least 6 times more (because you combine all your charges : sharpening of your tools & their maintenance, your electric/water bill in your workshop, its rent, a bit more to continue to buy better tools etc...)

In France, depending on where you live, hour sold is in general around 60€ Without VAT, can be a bit less, but generally more.

Where would you find skilled labor for $15/h? In Vietnam? This is what fast food servers make in CA. If you want to have skilled woodworker on your roster, you have to pay at least 3 times of that. If you do not like ATC pricing, look at benchmark like B&W 800 series.

 

[LEA-Ebenisterie]

Where would you find skilled labor for $15/h? In Vietnam? This is what fast food servers make in CA. If you want to have skilled woodworker on your roster, you have to pay at least 3 times of that. If you do not like ATC pricing, look at benchmark like B&W 800 series.

That's how it is in France, especially in "manual professions" and in firms from 0-60 employees, may be can be also valid for more (haven't been in those kind of companies though), workshop manager can go up to 15-18€/h but rarely more. In other jobs, yeah, you can go higher, but that's the main issue in France, manual jobs are underpaid.

I was paid 13€/h in 2022 - roughly 1 800€ a month, before starting my company.

 

[Everett T]

Where would you find skilled labor for $15/h? In Vietnam? This is what fast food servers make in CA. If you want to have skilled woodworker on your roster, you have to pay at least 3 times of that. If you do not like ATC pricing, look at benchmark like B&W 800 series.

There is nothing complicated about the B&W 800 series for a cabinet maker or a mid level woodworker, just time. If the process was semi automated the manual part would require very little skill. For B&W 800 series speakers the cut and buff for the gloss finishes would be one the most labor intensive under the semi automated scenario.

 

[Avp1]

There is nothing complicated about the B&W 800 series for a cabinet maker or a mid level woodworker, just time.

Start with trying to fold 1.5" plywood sheet. I would like to see how you would do that.

 

[Everett T]

Start with trying to fold 1.5" plywood sheet. I would like to see how you would do that.

Cut it so it's flexible, then steam, glue,.and clamp. Trying to bend 1.5" inches of solid or ply isn't going to happen consistently. Also, I didn't say I was that woodworker, I just happen to know enough to get me in trouble.

 

[Avp1]

Trying to bend 1.5" inches of solid or ply isn't going to happen consistently.

But bending 1.5" plywood is exactly what B&W does. Somehow I feel that you never saw B&W 80x speakers from short distance.

 

[Waxx]

They don't bend 1.5" plywood, they make the plywood themselves from thinner pieces of wood in the form they need as can be seen in this video.

And this is done by many woodworking factories that make custom hi end furniture in the world. There is nothing really special about that.

 

[Everett T]

But bending 1.5" plywood is exactly what B&W does.

And my answer does that too, and as stated, trying to bend 1.5" plywood isn't the best method and it turns out that B&W doesn't bend solid plywood according to Google. The method I mentioned, using Kerf cuts, iis the last one mentioned. Somehow I feel you didn't understand what you were watching.
.

 

[Frank Dernie]

And this is done by many woodworking factories that make custom hi end furniture in the world. There is nothing really special about that.

True but for DIY making the mould and getting vacuum bag and huge oven or autoclave just for one set of speakers?

 

[Everett T]

True but for DIY making the mould and getting vacuum bag and huge oven or autoclave just for one set of speakers?

That's why I mentioned the Kerf method, you just need the dimensions as you don't need a mold, or not a mold in the sense that B&W uses with high pressure. Now mind you his original post was about the diy community making a cabinet like the 800 series, which similar has been done but not with high pressure as the method.

 

[Frank Dernie]

That's why I mentioned the Kerf method, you just need the dimensions as you don't need a mold, or not a mold in the sense that B&W uses with high pressure. Now mind you his original post was about the diy community making a cabinet like the 800 series, which similar has been done but not with high pressure as the method.

The kerf method will not produce a cabinet with the same properties (apart from similar looks) though.