Yes that’s probably it and those listeners and ‘engineers’ probably wouldn’t understand them anyway.
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ATC speakers / Monitors
- Thread starter Pearljam5000
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To my knowledge, most of the loudspeakers Erin and Amir measure are sent in by the owners, and sometimes, Erin even buys them for his own money.
It seems like very few manufacturers are actively sending them in for measurements, so I don't see why anyone would single out ATC specifically for not doing that.
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That’s dandy but some contemporary manufacturers actually measure and publish those measurements themselves.
Keith
Keith
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If their speakers measure well, and they have the measurements, it’s an absolute no brainer to publish them, to shout them from the rooftops.
Sokel
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It depends on the selling points and advertisement (of which no one is innocent)
As long as ATC sells, they will probably go with the saying, "you don't change a winning team" .
It's only the market that forces you, no one else.
Blockader
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Let's be realistic here.
ATC doesn't measure great by Toole/Olive standards: German mags showed this ages ago and ATC knows it. But they also know their speakers sell. People have loved that sound since the '80s, and changing it risks losing loyal customers without necessarily gaining new ones.
The wise move? Start a new line that aligns with modern research, while keeping the classic designs that are beloved everywhere except ASR. Let both designs compete with each other under the same brand name.
I am looking at this from a perspective a sales engineer here.
ATC doesn't measure great by Toole/Olive standards: German mags showed this ages ago and ATC knows it. But they also know their speakers sell. People have loved that sound since the '80s, and changing it risks losing loyal customers without necessarily gaining new ones.
The wise move? Start a new line that aligns with modern research, while keeping the classic designs that are beloved everywhere except ASR. Let both designs compete with each other under the same brand name.
I am looking at this from a perspective a sales engineer here.
LEA-Ebenisterie
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What doesn't measure well in their speakers, do you have some measurments to show we're not aware of ?
Troels Gravesen did measure SM75-150 by their own (well, lacks burst decay, and most importantly distortion, but considering what they measure in the CSD Waterfall and how they are build with two coils to have a straight excursion, I doubt they will measure bad).
I don't see why they don't show measurments either, but why don't ask them straight by sending them an email to ask ?
DSJR
Master Contributor
THEY DO Keith!!!!! - Measure their own speakers I mean... I had witness of two plots of my own 100As, once when manufactured and filed away and the second time when an amp pack developed a fault and one speaker was returned for repair in the back of our branche's estate car (I always enjoyed an excuse to visit the factory and meet the main men there back then...). The two plots, three years apart, were thickness of the pen identical...
Martin Colloms has tested the 50As a couple of times at least over the years, once I think for HFN and later, HiFiCritic (I think it's called). There's links here to European tests as well, so in fairness, I think ATC have been okay with allowing other parties to test their wares.
P.S. I'd like to add again, that the early '19' model annihilated here, is and along with the related 20 and 35 active model, a bit different to the 11 and the three ways, as its (SCM 20 which the others are kind-of derived from) intention I gather, was to be sat on a meter bridge and 'tamer' in balance than an NS10 when the latter was a permanent fixture in studio control rooms. The 'up-tilted' 19 and 20 bass to upper mid balance also suited many smaller rooms if a powerful amp was used to drive them...
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Hmm, I think this way they would sell more units in total. But they want this? I don't think so.
Blockader
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SCM50. Messy off-axis even from 60 degrees angle. Directivity index is obviously messed up from 4khz and up. We discussed this before, soft domes can't perform well above 3-4khz, their dispersion characteristics change after 2khz and they start beaming.
SCM 25. Not bad, not great either. Based on Olive/Toole research performs worse than any Neumann or Genelec.
SCM 40. Even from 30 degrees angle, the tweeter starts beaming in directivity. Very messy.
SCM 19 was measured by Amir a couple years ago.
SCM 100
I could find the on-axis for SCM 100.
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OP
Pearljam5000
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ATC should send a pair of active SCM50 to Amir
It will solve all the mystery
It will solve all the mystery
Blockader
Addicted to Fun and Learning
There's nothing to solve here, no mystery. Anselm Goertz measured the ATC SCM 25 who is one of the most reliable sources for speaker measurements on the internet. Amir measured the SCM 19. You can see off-axis measurements SCM50 above. And beyond the measurements, anyone who understands basic speaker design knows that a 2 or 3-way without a waveguide around the tweeter simply can't meet the requirements set by Toole's research. Physics won't allow it. It's not opinion, it's geometry.
It's like cars: a chassis that wasn't designed around downforce isn't going to beat a proper track car with similar specs on paper. Same deal with speakers. If you understand the basics, you can look at baffle size, driver placement, drivers sizes plus the gaps between them, and crossover points and predict whether it'll measure well before anyone pulls out a microphone. ATC designs are very close to meausre good. All they need is to slap a waveguide around that tweeter and maybe ditch out those wonky soft domes. Do they have to measure better to get more sales? Debatable but if the market shifts to a different direction, they may become obsolete very quickly.
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LEA-Ebenisterie
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What year is this ?
I don't know if you remember, as my SCM40 MkIs that have a poor quality Vifa/Peerless tweeter, in the 50's, they used to use Seas tweeters if i'm correct, and other Seas Tweeters for SCM25 Pros until 2 or 3 years ago if i'm correct, before they put their own SH25-76, and yeah, I admit, their old tweeters are quite bad and tend to distort quite a lot, but SCM40 MkIs were much cheaper than MkII and MkIII iterations, don't forget that.
If it's their new tweeter that's quite bad indeed but you know ATCs were formerly used in studios, as per say, 0° directivity, so I don't think it's truely important to them to have messy response outside 0-10° off-axis.
I don't see any major issues on axis though.
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DSJR
Master Contributor
The current head of the company (son of Billy) isn't an 'audio trained' person I gather (I was told he's a lawyer by trade), but no idea on the sales director or the current design chappie as to how much influence they have on company trajectory. The 100A SE version mentioned above, went I believe, back to a fully discrete active crossover hinged off or plugged into the main amp board and the audiophool argument was that it would perform better than the chip-based active crossover section a bod interested in buying them and contacting me for input as he knew I'd owned and loved 100As, refused to accept that the chips used may actually offer lower noise and distortion than the complex discrete electronics on a daughter board with extra wiring... Still, at the time, it helped justify the extra cost (pushing 50% I recall).
I was told even thirty years ago, that big studios were closing down and the use of large soffit-mounted monitors was to impress clients rather than full-scale general use. ATC have had to diversify it seems, so lavishly veneered tower versions seems to be where it's at, especially in the lucrative far eastern market. I had to leave the Facebook ATC group because it was full of pics of dem rooms like over-done recording studios and a pair of huge usually passive ATCs with large valve amps by the dozen
placed as a shrine in between them...
P.S. Until the mid 90s or so, ATC used a Vifa soft some with ATC front plate for most, with the large Audax? in the 200 and 300 models. They changed it when said tweeters was discontinued (I believe) and at the time, existing models couldn't be drop-in retro-fitted (my 20ASL Pros with curvy cabs needed new baffles I was told by their sales manager and they didn't seem very interested frankly, which was a change from previous regimes there). I seem to recall the current tweeter can be fitted, but best to ask the factory here.
I was told even thirty years ago, that big studios were closing down and the use of large soffit-mounted monitors was to impress clients rather than full-scale general use. ATC have had to diversify it seems, so lavishly veneered tower versions seems to be where it's at, especially in the lucrative far eastern market. I had to leave the Facebook ATC group because it was full of pics of dem rooms like over-done recording studios and a pair of huge usually passive ATCs with large valve amps by the dozen
placed as a shrine in between them...P.S. Until the mid 90s or so, ATC used a Vifa soft some with ATC front plate for most, with the large Audax? in the 200 and 300 models. They changed it when said tweeters was discontinued (I believe) and at the time, existing models couldn't be drop-in retro-fitted (my 20ASL Pros with curvy cabs needed new baffles I was told by their sales manager and they didn't seem very interested frankly, which was a change from previous regimes there). I seem to recall the current tweeter can be fitted, but best to ask the factory here.
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What's left and what's right?
LEA-Ebenisterie
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Well, you're right that Studio with large ATCs are mostly used to impress clients, producers, labels etc..., but that's also true for other companies. Warren Huart from Produce Like a Pro always get that feedback from Mix engineers, large speakers are mostly used when the Producer or label is coming to make the last validation to go to mastering, and obviously, it's the last mixer's check.The current head of the company (son of Billy) isn't an 'audio trained' person I gather (I was told he's a lawyer by trade), but no idea on the sales director or the current design chappie as to how much influence they have on company trajectory. The 100A SE version mentioned above, went I believe, back to a fully discrete active crossover hinged off or plugged into the main amp board and the audiophool argument was that it would perform better than the chip-based active crossover section a bod interested in buying them and contacting me for input as he knew I'd owned and loved 100As, refused to accept that the chips used may actually offer lower noise and distortion than the complex discrete electronics on a daughter board with extra wiring... Still, at the time, it helped justify the extra cost (pushing 50% I recall).
I was told even thirty years ago, that big studios were closing down and the use of large soffit-mounted monitors was to impress clients rather than full-scale general use. ATC have had to diversify it seems, so lavishly veneered tower versions seems to be where it's at, especially in the lucrative far eastern market. I had to leave the Facebook ATC group because it was full of pics of dem rooms like over-done recording studios and a pair of huge usually passive ATCs with large valve amps by the dozen
P.S. Until the mid 90s or so, ATC used a Vifa soft some with ATC front plate for most, with the large Audax? in the 200 and 300 models. They changed it when said tweeters was discontinued (I believe) and at the time, existing models couldn't be drop-in retro-fitted (my 20ASL Pros with curvy cabs needed new baffles I was told by their sales manager and they didn't seem very interested frankly, which was a change from previous regimes there). I seem to recall the current tweeter can be fitted, but best to ask the factory here.
Though, in Mastering they're vastly used (PresentDayProduction before switching to their in-house made speakers), The Sterling Sound, etc...
Blockader
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Have you ever been in a room with a pair of the 50s? I’ve never met Amir,probably never will,but I’ll pretty much guarantee you he isn’t carrying one of the 50s around and sticking it on a klippel without serious long term injury,it’s not just the excessive weight,they’re just bloody hard to pick up.
Which is always funny to me, such expensive speakers to do what amounts to the most minimal amount of work that will be done on at track. I used to offer mastering services but I kind of felt like it wasn't a real job and I wasn't really doing anything, certainly nothing that would warrant what most people are asking for price wise. I found far more value and helping my clients understand that they don't need anyone for this task, gave them step by step details on the tools I use and how to use them, and the mental and subjective nature of the work. I now only work with projects that I can mix at the stem level. No interest at all in cleaning up a stereo mix.
Mastering world really strikes me as a way to get maximum profit with the least amount of effort that capitalizes on musicians insecurity, so ATC speakers should really fit right in there.
DSJR
Master Contributor
I was thinking also of the large multi-driver monitors from many international makers here, not just ATC... Mastering rooms tend I believe, to use something a little smaller, such as B&W N802 and one mastering chap I know of, used ATC 100As when based in his home studio in Skye (the remoteness did no harm as files were sent to him for mastering - I believe he's emigrated east now and not sure if he's working as he's a few years older than I).
