ATC speakers / Monitors

[Dialectic]

great! then could you please give a couple examples of 'one-note bass' tracks?

Sure. Here's a nasty one:

Another example is "Happy" by Pharrell Williams. Unlistenable on a good system, but that didn't limit its popularity. Perhaps it was mixed and mastered that way intentionally.

The problem is ubiquitous on smaller label stuff, probably because the mixing and mastering "professionals" who work on that material don't have listening setups that enable them to hear what's going on in the low end. I could name some of these tracks, but that just seems unkind.

I suspect my system and room measure better than most of the setups at big mixing and mastering studios (not, however, in terms of maximum output level or evenness of frequency response without digital EQ). My system does have a dip at 65 Hz in the left channel (caused by speaker placement optimized for other attributes), but most of the bass problems to which I'm referring take place above that frequency. I have four measurement mics and use different measurement setups, and they seem roughly consistent.

There are a lot of folks on ASR who listen to popular music and imagine a professional class of mixing and mastering professionals who have specific training and competency. I briefly recorded classical music in my 20s and saw some of that world. I am sorry to disabuse you of your misconception.

 

[Rettica]

What's the problem with McCartney's track? All the bass notes are there, completely readable. The bass guitar is quite dominant, but I certainly wouldn't call it a problem

I kinda get what you say about "Happy", there's a lot of low tuned percussion going through the whole track, so sometimes it may sound a little cluttered. If we could call it a problem, then I would blame production/arrangement for it, rather than mixing. Bass sounds completely fine though

How long is the bass decay time in your room?

 

[Dialectic]

What's the problem with McCartney's track? All the bass notes are there, completely readable. The bass guitar is quite dominant, but I certainly wouldn't call it a problem

I kinda get what you say about "Happy", there's a lot of low tuned percussion going through the whole track, so sometimes it may sound a little cluttered. If we could call it a problem, then I would blame production/arrangement for it, rather than mixing. Bass sounds completely fine though

How long is the bass decay time in your room?

Right channel has a T30 below 250 ms as far down as REW measures. The left channel has a bump below 60Hz, I suspect because of a nearby door. Room is 13' by 22', 9' ceilings, and there are lots of absorbers for stereo imaging, not bass performance. Speakers are on the long wall.

It's not the room.

You think there's nothing wrong with the first 15 seconds of the McCartney track? The problem can be heard easily on headphones.

There are worse small-label examples of that sort of thing, but I don't think it's appropriate to post those.

 

[dfuller]

Sure. Here's a nasty one:

Another example is "Happy" by Pharrell Williams. Unlistenable on a good system, but that didn't limit its popularity. Perhaps it was mixed and mastered that way intentionally.

The problem is ubiquitous on smaller label stuff, probably because the mixing and mastering "professionals" who work on that material don't have listening setups that enable them to hear what's going on in the low end. I could name some of these tracks, but that just seems unkind.

I suspect my system and room measure better than most of the setups at big mixing and mastering studios (not, however, in terms of maximum output level or evenness of frequency response without digital EQ). My system does have a dip at 65 Hz in the left channel (caused by speaker placement optimized for other attributes), but most of the bass problems to which I'm referring take place above that frequency. I have four measurement mics and use different measurement setups, and they seem roughly consistent.

There are a lot of folks on ASR who listen to popular music and imagine a professional class of mixing and mastering professionals who have specific training and competency. I briefly recorded classical music in my 20s and saw some of that world. I am sorry to disabuse you of your misconception.

None of these sound like "one note bass" on my KH420s. They don't sound like this on ATCs either. I think your system isn't as clean in the low end as you think it is.

(the McCartney mix is quite bad, though... take your head off bright vocals)

 

[Dialectic]

None of these sound like "one note bass" on my KH420s. They don't sound like this on ATCs either. I think your system isn't as clean in the low end as you think it is.

(the McCartney mix is quite bad, though... take your head off bright vocals)

I couldn't have guessed that was coming!

 

[Purité Audio]

Bass and ATC?
Keith

 

[dfuller]

Bass and ATC?
Keith

Yes Keith, I know this is a shocker to you.

 

[goat76]

I couldn't have guessed that was coming!

While it may not be the sharpest bass tone I’ve ever heard, I have no problem at all hearing the bass melody in that McCartney song in my system.

 

[jeremynothman]

Here in the UK, most music is being made in smaller and smaller studios. Even some big name engineers are working out of incredibly small spaces.

To make things worse, most producers annd engineers don’t really know how to choose a room based on its dimensions or even have the option to make a choice like this. Then, treating and setting up a room properly is a challenge.

Absolutely true, and at the same time, I think that the average producer/engineer is MUCH better informed when it comes to some simple acoustic treatment than they were 20 years ago. I have the impression that most production studios/home studios are much better treated than they used to be. On the other hand, I do see that many mid-higher-end studios opt to have a trinnov than treat the low end to the extent as may have earlier been pursued.

 

[goat76]

Bass and ATC?
Keith

I actually wish all manufacturers would do it like ATC, and let the physical size of the loudspeakers dictate the bass extension, and by that keep the distortion level at a minimum. If someone requires more bass extension, the correct solution is either buying larger speakers or adding subwoofers to the system.

When it comes to the scoring of loudspeakers' performance, I think there should be a larger penalty for small speakers with way too much “impressive” bass extension, as the distortion almost always shoots through the roof. It's just a selling argument, but physics are physics.

 

[Purité Audio]

‘Distortion levels at a minimum’ you have evidence?
Apart from your front room measurements.
Keith

 

[goat76]

‘Distortion levels at a minimum’ you have evidence?
Apart from your front room measurements.
Keith

You have been provided with distortion measurements of ATC speakers many times before, maybe you should check your memory, or just read back a few pages in this thread?

You will only get disappointed when you realize that the distortion level measurements will actually be even lower than mine, when they are made in a free field environment.

 

[Purité Audio]

I am prepared to be disappointed.
I struggle to understand how any loudspeaker manufacturer in 2026 chooses not to publish measurements of their products.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

I am prepared to be disappointed.
I struggle to understand how any loudspeaker manufacturer in 2026 chooses not to publish measurements of their products.
Keith

Most have a long list of excuses that they trot out anytime it comes up:

Measurements' won't tell you what it sounds like
Anechoic chambers aren't the same as your room
Measurements won't tell you if you will like it or not
Measurements just confuse the punters
Good measurements don't automatically translate to good sound

Added to which they've got away with it for so long; but the times are changing I think.

 

[dfuller]

‘Distortion levels at a minimum’ you have evidence?
Apart from your front room measurements.
Keith

Don't worry @goat76 he'll go out of his way to call them all nonsense and fake while claiming the DD8C isn't high distortion around 100hz.

 

[jeremynothman]

Sure. Here's a nasty one:

Another example is "Happy" by Pharrell Williams. Unlistenable on a good system, but that didn't limit its popularity. Perhaps it was mixed and mastered that way intentionally.

The problem is ubiquitous on smaller label stuff, probably because the mixing and mastering "professionals" who work on that material don't have listening setups that enable them to hear what's going on in the low end. I could name some of these tracks, but that just seems unkind.

I suspect my system and room measure better than most of the setups at big mixing and mastering studios (not, however, in terms of maximum output level or evenness of frequency response without digital EQ). My system does have a dip at 65 Hz in the left channel (caused by speaker placement optimized for other attributes), but most of the bass problems to which I'm referring take place above that frequency. I have four measurement mics and use different measurement setups, and they seem roughly consistent.

There are a lot of folks on ASR who listen to popular music and imagine a professional class of mixing and mastering professionals who have specific training and competency. I briefly recorded classical music in my 20s and saw some of that world. I am sorry to disabuse you of your misconception.

Wait, your problem is with their use of the reverse-kick pattern in the first few bars? It's called a creative arrangement decision. They choose actively to break with the rest of the arrangement and opt for more bass impact before the song really kicks in.

I'm not sure that you have understood that arrangement, playing, recording, mixing, even mastering are creative pursuits. There is no objectively correct thing to do, even though there are decisions that seem to be more common.

As for professional mixing and mastering engineers - some have lots of official training, but mostly it is something that you attain by doing. Mostly people don't become respected mastering engineers without having done years of recording and mixing (and people trusting their taste as to what is radio/release-ready). The reality in general is that you have multiple engineers with differing levels of experience working together (but in different rooms) on a single project. The sum total is the outcome, and the concept is that the multiple filters help to better the outcome.

Ironically, that is much more the case in pop than it is in jazz and classical, where often one engineer does the record, mix and a master of sorts.

With the previous tunes I'm really not sure what is implied about them. Do you prefer one to the other? Stylistically I don't care for the Enrico Pieranunzi tune, but it doesn't mean it was especially poorly recorded or mixed. In any case, it's much more of a challenge to record and and make such a large and diverse ensemble (jazz trio plus orchestra) fit together than a traditional jazz quartet.

 

[goat76]

@jeremynothman

That last one about the Enrico Pieranunzi tune and the other jazz song was posted by another forum member, not the one you replied to above.

 

[goat76]

Don't worry @goat76 he'll go out of his way to call them all nonsense and fake while claiming the DD8C isn't high distortion around 100hz.

What I think is important to mention from time to time to people reading this thread who may have missed it. Keith (Purité Audio) used to be a dealer for ATC speakers, but lost the dealership with them for unknown reasons. He obviously didn't take that very well.

 

[Purité Audio]

The reasons aren’t unknown at all we just didn’t sell any, we did however sell quite a number of D&D8Cs as many customers asked for a direct comparison.
Keith

 

[DSJR]

Most have a long list of excuses that they trot out anytime it comes up:

Measurements' won't tell you what it sounds like
Anechoic chambers aren't the same as your room
Measurements won't tell you if you will like it or not
Measurements just confuse the punters
Good measurements don't automatically translate to good sound

Added to which they've got away with it for so long; but the times are changing I think.

Don't some of the more trustworthy makers allow proper third party testing of their wares (not just speakers)? The on;y bugbear in one maker's case is that the reviewers don't get in touch with the manufacturer to get an idea of usage cases and so on. I can think of one speaker maker where the test axis (nowhere near as thorough as a Klippel) in two iterations of the same model, one a descendant of the other and several years apart, used the wrong tweeter driver for on-axis tests (best not say more) and giving a potentially 'dirtier' result in the top octave. It kind-of came correct in the vertical dispersion testing, however...

You know, I really wish Amir had been able to test the SCM11 instead of the dated 19 model, as the 11 does appear to measure rather better in ASR terms...