ATC speakers / Monitors

[Blockader]

Narrowing at that high frequency may not makes much difference for

if you really want to "win" this argument, all you have to do is to show ATC speakers with constant or consistent directivity. I do not care about winning anything, I am here to enjoy a good information exchange.The point I made was clear, you can find metal domes that shit their pants above 10khz. The real challenge is, however to find soft dome driver that has the off axis performance of a sota metal dome. I always wanted to search all soft domes to see if there is even one example. So if you go ahead and find one, you can save me from trouble.

As for narrowing, in case of scm19, it is obviously a problem that affects in room response. We need more ATC measurements to see if there is something we can defend about ATC.

 

[YSDR]

The real challenge is, however to find soft dome driver that has the off axis performance of a sota metal dome.

That's maybe true but on the other hand, the real challenge of a metal dome is to find one that doesn't sounds metallic to human ear. Even the best beryllium domes sounds metallic. I don't know what measurements shows that but they certainly sounds like this, at least to my ears or others who hear it.

 

[Purité Audio]

Uh huh
Keith

 

[Ktacos]

That's maybe true but on the other hand, the real challenge of a metal dome is to find one that doesn't sounds metallic to human ear. Even the best beryllium domes sounds metallic. I don't know what measurements shows that but they certainly sounds like this, at least to my ears or others who hear it.

This is the classic case of people thinking drivers sound like their materials when it really just comes down to how the drivers are filtered. It's pretty easy to mess it up and be left with a tweeter that is harsh regardless of it's material makeup.

 

[Chrise36]

Frank Dernie


I don't think I've said anything about handling extremes. Are there perhaps extensive adaptation problems in your understanding of what you read? Try to read my writing twice so that you can think about the nature of my logical thought, line strokes, word by word, it shouldn't be overwhelming to understand the text. Even a 10-year-old can understand what I'm saying clearly and without the slightest distortion.

But. but... Genelec speakers get better as they get bigger, so that the studio/live sound reproduction always gets bigger and produces more believable sound patterns. Unfortunately, Atc is not able to reproduce the same quality in terms of power that Genelec can naturally produce with high quality. Atc is more or less a tool suitable for basic elevator music. An overpriced expensive speaker manufacturer and, unfortunately, it is under-functional in terms of power and bass.

This is what it is and will not change its form for anything better, unless the management of the Atc company properly grasps the idea and makes some changes to the matter. So the management of the lazy company is apparently not doing anything about it... Blame them for being lazy.

Like this 10k per pair one?

 

[dfuller]

Best compromises? No, unfortunately no.

Pairing a wide directivity midrange with a soft dome tweeter is a design oversight. Back in the 1980s, the importance of consistent or controlled directivity wasn’t clear to everyone. ATC designs are still stuck in 80s.

Before getting into why this pairing doesn’t work well, let’s go over the basics. What we hear from a speaker isn’t just the direct, on-axis sound. it’s a mix of that and the early reflections from the room. Our brain blends these sounds together within a certain time window to form what we perceive as the speaker’s sound.

For that blending to work properly, the reflected sound needs to match the direct sound fairly closely. If the two sound noticeably different, our brain can’t merge them effectively. Instead of helping, the reflections end up muddying the sound rather than adding to it.
Yes, a wide directivity midrange driver can sound more detailed than one with a narrow beamwidth especially when the bass is rolled off, as is the case with most ATC speakers (aside from their largest models). And yes, a soft dome tweeter usually has a narrower beamwidth than a metal dome, which can lead to better clarity in a room by reducing the number of high frequency reflections. With fewer reflections bouncing around, the high end can sound more focused and cleaner.

This is basically what ATC offers: a wide directivity midrange that enhances the richness and detail of the midrange, paired with a soft-dome tweeter that delivers good high frequency clarity. However, using both together introduces a certain coloration to the overall sound. The issue is that the on-axis response won't closely match the sound of the room reflections with such driver configuration.

In blind listening tests speakers with this kind of setup tend to perform not as good as, say, Genelec 8341. But in sighted tests where listeners are exposed to the speakers for just 15–20 minutes, the listener might prefer ATC’s sound, especially if they’re not trained listeners or aren’t familiar with how the track sounds on a more accurate system. That’s because ATC’s voicing can make the midrange sound lusher and more engaging and although the high frequency detail might be reduced the perceived clarity is higher due to fewer room reflections. They will call this sound "warm and rich" and justify it.

Another thing about ATC is their build quality. it’s seriously impressive. Their speakers just feel premium all around. They look professional, solid, and built like tanks. Back in the ’80s they were truly over-engineered, though that might not be the case anymore. Still, if you're an audio engineer and want your gear to look high-end and make a strong impression on clients, ATC pulls that off better than most Genelec speakers.

I would just note a couple of things -

1. The mid dome is relatively controlled in terms of its dispersion behavior. What measurements are out there show that it has about a 60 degree beam width once it becomes directional, and it starts to become directional (on an infinite baffle) around 1k. Obviously this is going to be different on an actual speaker and not a test baffle, but it is certainly not "ultra wide". It's a fairly well behaved driver in its passband.

2. 25mm-class soft dome tweeters become directional about 8k, depending on the exact geometry of the tweeter and how it's mounted. The ATC tweeter has a small lip that actually tends to widen its response some. I would prefer to see it in a dxt-like small waveguide, which would be plenty to control it around the high crossover point and keep it fairly consistent up into the top octave (I don't think beaming past 10k is particularly bad, FWIW). Oddly enough the SEAS tweeter they were using before (the T25CF001) had more of a waveguide...

3. I do agree that ATC probably could do with a bit of a more modern design, but what they're doing now is about as far as you can take a flat baffle.

 

[Blockader]

Like this 10k per pair one?

Distortion in speakers is a much smaller problem than most people think. Thanks to auditory masking, second and third order distortions are typically inaudible unless extremes, only higher-order distortions, like fourth or fifth, have a chance of being heard. And audio transducers do not produce those high order distortions much.(dacs, amps can)

We question everything in these forums because we want every claim to be backed by evidence, right? So, have you ever questioned the actual audibility of speaker distortion? A 80db SINAD, especially if it’s distortion dominated, is only audible to extremely talented or uniquely gifted listeners, if at all.

For example, Dutch & Dutch 8c relies on the inaudibility of moderate levels of distortion. They trade a bit of distortion in the 100–150 Hz range for superior directivity and beamwidth control. I’d take that trade any day. If you have doubts that you can even hear -70db distortion, try klippel's distoriton hearing test and post your results here.

The biggest challenge in speaker design is achieving consistent dispersion control from around 120 Hz up to 20 kHz without introducing high-order diffractions. D&D 8C, GGNTKT M3, 8361 + W371 achieve that.

As for 8361, for a coaxial design, it has state of the art level low distortion and IMD:

Even more impressive are its compression results considering it’s a DSP speaker(something that often leads inexperienced engineers to over-rely on digital filtering to fix nonlinearities which leads to compression issues.) And let’s not forget, it achieves all this with oval racetrack woofers, which makes the performance even more remarkable.

I have no idea how this is even possible, really.

 

[Blockader]

I would just note a couple of things -

1. The mid dome is relatively controlled in terms of its dispersion behavior. What measurements are out there show that it has about a 60 degree beam width once it becomes directional, and it starts to become directional (on an infinite baffle) around 1k. Obviously this is going to be different on an actual speaker and not a test baffle, but it is certainly not "ultra wide". It's a fairly well behaved driver in its passband.

2. 25mm-class soft dome tweeters become directional about 8k, depending on the exact geometry of the tweeter and how it's mounted. The ATC tweeter has a small lip that actually tends to widen its response some. I would prefer to see it in a dxt-like small waveguide, which would be plenty to control it around the high crossover point and keep it fairly consistent up into the top octave (I don't think beaming past 10k is particularly bad, FWIW). Oddly enough the SEAS tweeter they were using before (the T25CF001) had more of a waveguide...

3. I do agree that ATC probably could do with a bit of a more modern design, but what they're doing now is about as far as you can take a flat baffle.

https://studio-hifi.com/images/Stereoplay_2010-08_ATC_SCM100A_SL_TowerFF-.pdf

I don't want to sound harsh, however I do not know how else to put this into words:

This kind of off-axis performance isn’t 'as good as a flat baffle can get'. it honestly feels stuck in the 80s. That’s all.

For those looking for a large, flush-mountable, state-of-the-art speaker, I’d recommend checking out the Aalto 9 from Aalto.

you can find their full measurements in spinorama.org. (the second one is made for flush mounting specifically)

 

[Chrise36]

Distortion in speakers is a much smaller problem than most people think. Thanks to auditory masking, second and third order distortions are typically inaudible unless extremes, only higher-order distortions, like fourth or fifth, have a chance of being heard. And audio transducers do not produce those high order distortions much.(dacs, amps can)

We question everything in these forums because we want every claim to be backed by evidence, right? So, have you ever questioned the actual audibility of speaker distortion? A 80db SINAD, especially if it’s distortion dominated, is only audible to extremely talented or uniquely gifted listeners, if at all.

For example, Dutch & Dutch 8c relies on the inaudibility of moderate levels of distortion. They trade a bit of distortion in the 100–150 Hz range for superior directivity and beamwidth control. I’d take that trade any day. If you have doubts that you can even hear -70db distortion, try klippel's distoriton hearing test and post your results here.

The biggest challenge in speaker design is achieving consistent dispersion control from around 120 Hz up to 20 kHz without introducing high-order diffractions. D&D 8C, GGNTKT M3, 8361 + W371 achieve that.

As for 8361, for a coaxial design, it has state of the art level low distortion and IMD:

View attachment 459235

Even more impressive are its compression results considering it’s a DSP speaker(something that often leads inexperienced engineers to over-rely on digital filtering to fix nonlinearities which leads to compression issues.) And let’s not forget, it achieves all this with oval racetrack woofers, which makes the performance even more remarkable.
View attachment 459236
I have no idea how this is even possible, really.

I was replying to the high spl capabilities of the higher priced Genelecs vs ATC which apparently is not the case seeing the HF response.
Some of the members here would think you are apologetic against a significant measured parameter or does it affect only ATC owners?
Do you feel this kind of performance is worth of the high price given the profound SPL limitations? How much better are these distortion figures vs the SCM19 or a REVEL for exame at a quarter of the price?
How much better is the 8361 vs the SCM45 in that regard?

 

[Blockader]

I was replying to the high spl capabilities of the higher priced Genelecs vs ATC which apparently is not the case seeing the HF response.
Some of the members here would think you are apologetic against a significant measured parameter or does it affect only ATC owners?
Do you feel this kind of performance is worth of the high price given the profound SPL limitations? How much better are these distortion figures vs the SCM19 or a REVEL for exame at a quarter of the price?
How much better is the 8361 vs the SCM45 in that regard?

what SPL limitation are we talking about? German 8361 measurements

They’re almost as loud as the KH 420s, despite being coaxial which typically limits maximum SPL. The measurements of KH 420 above is also taken by Anselm Goertz. Search for it, you'll find it. Surprisingly 8361's are louder than KH 420 in bass region(KH 420's port tuning prioritizes extension over max SPL), given that most systems are bass limited in max SPL, this is a big plus for 8361's design. KH 420's mid dome has of course insane max SPL, as long as KH 420's are paired with big subs, they can reach ridiculously high SPL levels too. As for SCM45's, they have only x2 6.5'' drivers, they can't match to Genelec 8361 or Neumann KH 420 in bass max SPL. Physically not possible.

I was able to find SCM25's max SPL vs freq graph:

Also note that Neumann mid dome has higher max SPL than ATC mid dome.

 

[dfuller]

As for SCM45's, they have only x2 6.5'' drivers, they can't match to Genelec 8361 or Neumann KH 420 in bass max SPL. Physically not possible.

2x 6.5" is roughly equivalent in area to 1x 9" for round conical drivers in terms of SD. There's no way the 45 is keeping up with the 8361 or especially the KH420 in terms of dynamics. But that makes sense, the equivalent speaker to the KH420 is the SCM50, which has a substantially larger voice coil and driver (it's a 10"-class woofer), a whole bunch more cabinet volume (as the name suggests, 50L internal vs 2x 22L), and the higher sensitivity "S-spec" mid which has better characteristics all around.

The 45 is a weird sounding and dumb speaker, probably the worst sounding ATC I've heard. I was thoroughly unimpressed with them, and I tend to like ATCs. I'm not sure why anybody would go with them over the 25 Mk2s at this point, they don't offer much except for a tiny bit of bass SPL for the extra $3000 or so a pair they cost.

 

[574stereo]

Weird sounding and dumb? How so? Lots of people who have upgraded from SCM25s and a few who have stepped down from 50s to 45s.

Very similar tonality and performance overall. Different LF roll offs and SPL capability.


RE audibility of distortion… Kii3s, d&d, both monitors which are known to sound nice but lack resolution. Speak to other engineers who have worked with them.

A well known mix engineer here in the UK has had 8Cs for a few years and doesn’t like them. Now that he’s found a more permanent room to exist in he’s looking to change to SCM45s and subs.

 

[Purité Audio]

Uh huh.
Keith

 

[Chrise36]

View attachment 459250
what SPL limitation are we talking about? German 8361 measurements


View attachment 459251

They’re almost as loud as the KH 420s, despite being coaxial which typically limits maximum SPL. The measurements of KH 420 above is also taken by Anselm Goertz. Search for it, you'll find it. Surprisingly 8361's are louder than KH 420 in bass region(KH 420's port tuning prioritizes extension over max SPL), given that most systems are bass limited in max SPL, this is a big plus for 8361's design. KH 420's mid dome has of course insane max SPL, as long as KH 420's are paired with big subs, they can reach ridiculously high SPL levels too. As for SCM45's, they have only x2 6.5'' drivers, they can't match to Genelec 8361 or Neumann KH 420 in bass max SPL. Physically not possible.

I was able to find SCM25's max SPL vs freq graph:

View attachment 459253

Also note that Neumann mid dome has higher max SPL than ATC mid dome.

I was referring to distortion about the ATC not SPL. In Amir's review it is obvious that the limiter kicks in protecting the tweeter. That shows it is not as capable as a fellow member preaches for the price or not? What are the S&R measurements supposed to show that speakers fall apart above a certain spl? If 100 to 10k hz is what interests why bother so much with constant directivity? Just a few thoughts...

 

[Esprit]

Studios tend to be pretty claustrophobic spaces, to the point where some artists/producers/engineers would rather work in an acoustically compromised space which feels right, at the expense of everything sounding right.

[…] One of the most awe-inspiring writing, recording and mixing spaces in the world, the Big Room is a musician’s paradise, packed with technology, old and new. Aesthetically, it’s also a far cry from the windowless box of the average studio, as glancing up from the 72-channel Solid State Logic 9000K console gives an intoxicating view of the millpond through the giant windows, complete with ducks, swans and – if you’re lucky – kingfishers.[…]

 

[Esprit]

Why are ATCs so popular in studios even though They cost more than Genelec/Neumann?

Don't forget about PMC...

https://pmc-speakers.com/

 

[Blockader]

I was referring to distortion about the ATC not SPL. In Amir's review it is obvious that the limiter kicks in protecting the tweeter. That shows it is not as capable as a fellow member preaches for the price or not? What are the S&R measurements supposed to show that speakers fall apart above a certain spl? If 100 to 10k hz is what interests why bother so much with constant directivity? Just a few thoughts...

No dome tweeters can sustain 96–100 db test tones continuously due to heat buildup, so the limiter is doing exactly what it's supposed to. Only speakers with compression drivers can reliably handle continuous 100 db+ SPL test tones. That said, The SPL limitations of a speaker is usually in the bass region, not in HF. In typical music, the bass is usually 20–30 dB louder than the treble and the mids are 10–15 dB louder, which keeps the strain off the tweeters. In other words, the SPL bottleneck is very rarely in the treble almost never, in fact.

The measurements above are taken from Genelec S360 which have compression drivers. Compression drivers can deal with heat buildup much better due to how efficient they are.

Why do I care about constant directivity so much? Well, the directivity shapes the tonality of the reflections in a room-like environment. Directivity determines the frequency content of the sound waves that hit the walls, bounce around the room, and eventually reach your ears. It influences the perceived envelopment, the size and precision(imaging) of the soundstage and even the SBIR (speaker-boundary interference response) profile of the system .I could go on, but the point is: our brain doesn’t just process the direct sound: it integrates the reflections too our brain combines the sound of reflections with the direct sound. So if those reflections aren’t tonally consistent with the direct sound, our brain confuses room reflections as direct sounds with different tonality. So, our brain ends up being bombarded with a a bunch of direct sounds that all differ from each other. The result?
Muddy sound, (wider directivity in bass/low mids compared to mids/HF)
reduced clarity, (lots of early loud early reflections that differ in tonality to direct sound)
poor imaging, (lots of large diffractions in the directivity and uneven directivity) and
broken tonality because the combined sound is tonally a mess.

It also leads to listening fatigue, as the brain struggles to identify a stable reference point to anchor the reflections to. When every pseudo-direct sound varies in tonality, the brain can't figure out what to trust, and the entire experience falls apart.

 

[DSJR]

Well, I don't see any narrowing from the mentioned "anti-phase" behaviour.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/atc-scm100aslt-active-loudspeaker-review/

Gawd those things are ugly, but that heavily lacquered bastardisation of the original stand mounted concept is exactly what many markets really like these days, the wilder the veneer the better...

I wonder if ATC are gradually sliding into the market Tannoy have occupied for some decades, as relics from a once ubiquitous past (I remember my now retired mastering engineer pal telling me how the original B&W 801 was welcomed into their mastering rooms over the 'coloured old' Tannoys in Lockwood cabs...

 

[DSJR]

That's maybe true but on the other hand, the real challenge of a metal dome is to find one that doesn't sounds metallic to human ear. Even the best beryllium domes sounds metallic. I don't know what measurements shows that but they certainly sounds like this, at least to my ears or others who hear it.

I have to say this, but Harbeths are as sweet as a nut, one reason being not crossing the darned things over too low, as apparently (and yes, this was proved to me with the tweeters *they* use, as they kind of 'bark' if crossed over too low, and dang the dispersion issues of crossing over higher up). More modern tweets may well be different and I do personally have an issue with most metal domes which take off big time above audio frequencies (some digital systems do have ultrasonic noise I gather, but whether that would set off a tweet with a 15dB peak at 40k or so???

 

[Palmer]

[…] One of the most awe-inspiring writing, recording and mixing spaces in the world, the Big Room is a musician’s paradise, packed with technology, old and new. Aesthetically, it’s also a far cry from the windowless box of the average studio, as glancing up from the 72-channel Solid State Logic 9000K console gives an intoxicating view of the millpond through the giant windows, complete with ducks, swans and – if you’re lucky – kingfishers.[…]
View attachment 459343View attachment 459344

Let's also remind ourselves that in 2005 Peter Gabriel became (a) major shareholder, one might say owner, cough, of Solid State Logic. Smart man, he is.
I have built several studios, Real World is something else. Currently in Mix Online, on the other hand - one of the worst Control Rooms I have ever seen. Strange times...