ATC speakers / Monitors

[Chrise36]

This audio industry is quite special in the sense that so many men do not look to the future, but simply follow the quality standards of ancient times. The intelligence of the average person is only a hobby for so many people. But knowledge does not want to take control of how to make their own hobby smarter in terms of sound reproduction to the highest and most enjoyable quality.

Perhaps so many people love shine and colors and shapes in their audio equipment more than a learned understanding of how sound reproduction adapts better to your living room. Acoustic problems do not even come to mind, nor optimized solutions. Too lazy people adapt to old doctrines and the new doctrine does not want to fit into their brains in any way, as if this were some kind of Elon Musk rocket science, which it is not. Certain speakers/brands have simply lagged far behind human development, and are limited in this and that in many applications and rooms.

Mediocrity does not take you far.

Or maybe this:
'"the chip-amp used in some small Genelecs from a teardown thread and the SINAD was at 70's-80"




https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/l...55761&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

 

[Frank Dernie]

I would argue they aren't popular in studios and those that do have them are an exception rather than the rule. I would wager genelec/nuemann adoption is far greater than ATC. The studios with ATC tend to be quite fancy and follow a more traditional approach of being a large dedicated studio, while the vast majority of musicians and engineers are working in smaller home studios.

Given the ease with which quality home recording can be done there has clearly been an explosion in the demand for less expensive equipment as long as it is adequate for small rooms and near field working.
I am not sure ATC have attempted to enter this market, rightly or wrongly.

 

[Behrelec 37]

- Don't the battens in your home made grilles defeat the object of smooth waveguides on tweeter and mid driver?


Heh heh heh hee...


Genelec sells black fabric grills/dust cover/UV protection for master series speakers up to at least 1238a.

 

[DSJR]

Given the ease with which quality home recording can be done there has clearly been an explosion in the demand for less expensive equipment as long as it is adequate for small rooms and near field working.
I am not sure ATC have attempted to enter this market, rightly or wrongly.

The 11s would do, but they're now rather expensive for a basic 'budget' two way and passive to boot (not sure if they're as power hungry as the 19/20 models are, as a Naim streamer could drive 11s quite well at domestic levels).


Perhaps the pros looking in and posting here could put me straight please? I was under the impression that mixing/studio engineers would hear well recorded and mixed releases and do some digging as to the studios used. Back in antiquity, Westlake designed rooms with dedicated monitoring (using JBL drivers?) seemed to have a good approach to aid great productions and it seems that later on, ATC's largest three ways (with twin 12" or 15" drivers) became popular and some other speaker brands used ATC drivers with their own particular 'spin' on it. Even in the 90s, ATC's then very vocal sales manager bemoaned the closure of many big studios and the rise in 'bedroom-DJ' kind of recording/production venues. It seems now that ATC's 25 and 45 models seem to crop up here and there and now the NS10 is falling by the wayside, so many mixing suite pics I've seen, tend to have early rectangular Genelecs (1030 family?), the newer smaller bulbous models going into broadcast editing suites it seems.

Billy W had very rigid ideas about how his monitors worked and were to be used, but in more recent times, he and his electronics designer business partner basically retired (Tim more fully I gather) and of course, Billy passed away not very long ago, leaving his Lawyer (I believe) son in charge. Talented as the current design chap there is (Ben?), I wonder if the finances will ever be fully available to seriously take the brand forward in terms of dsp, new baffle shapes and so on, as they seem to be selling fancy looking older models to the far east wealthy domestic market which seems to be lapping it up. Studios seem to be looking at 25 and 45 actives maybe now?

Forgive me if I'm wrong above. I still relax very easily into the tones the 100A and 150A provide, but I do appreciate how things have moved on and how cheaper-to-build products can perform so very very well (something Harbeth may discover now they're launching their own active dsp models at a not-low price - three grand for their tiny active two-way and 'name a figure' for their top three way depending on what amps and cables dealers can sell with them!).

 

[Avp1]

Given the ease with which quality home recording can be done there has clearly been an explosion in the demand for less expensive equipment as long as it is adequate for small rooms and near field working.
I am not sure ATC have attempted to enter this market, rightly or wrongly.

In ATC lineup SCM25 is for near field and SCM50 is usable for a small room. We are not consifering bedroom with bare wall here though. There could be explosive demand created by new youtubers, but we are talking about professional audio here, not a single man production.

 

[Frank Dernie]

- Don't the battens in your home made grilles defeat the object of smooth waveguides on tweeter and mid driver?


Heh heh heh hee...


Genelec sells black fabric grills/dust cover/UV protection for master series speakers up to at least 1238a.

So those are Genelec parts?! they look rather crude and acoustically obtrusive but I suppose they can't be otherwise the measurements would show it, I would not have expected grilles as crude as that from them

 

[Behrelec 37]

Who has claimed that?

Or who is reading or interpreting things crookedly now?

As I recall, I said that black front fabrics are sold separately by Genelec with their logo, what else could a colored fabric be but a DIY hobby? For fun and sport, anyone can do this. I am aware that there are not many people like me in humanity who would have done this to Genelec.

This is what you can do if black fabric does not necessarily appeal to women. Nothing more than to do it yourself.

 

[dfuller]

Perhaps the pros looking in and posting here could put me straight please? I was under the impression that mixing/studio engineers would hear well recorded and mixed releases and do some digging as to the studios used.

That is the case, but it really ends up being more about the engineer who did the recording and/or mixing than the gear. Like yeah, a good room with good gear certainly makes it easier, but real pros can work with almost anything.

As far as ATC in studios, by far the most common is the SCM25A. The big ones (100ASL and above) are generally reserved for use as mains or in mastering suites where you need more power and extension (Northward is apparently very fond of the SCM110, and you see them in a lot of mastering rooms he's built).

I'd argue the 50 and 110 are the best balanced of the bunch; I'm not fond of the 150 and up.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Who has claimed that?

Or who is reading or interpreting things crookedly now?

As I recall, I said that black front fabrics are sold separately by Genelec with their logo, what else could a colored fabric be but a DIY hobby? For fun and sport, anyone can do this. I am aware that there are not many people like me in humanity who would have done this to Genelec.

This is what you can do if black fabric does not necessarily appeal to women. Nothing more than to do it yourself.

Sorry, I see.
I had assumed from your many posts that the utmost sound quality was so important anything else was deserving of scorn
This was clearly not the case, my mistake

 

[Behrelec 37]

Frank Dernie


I don't think I've said anything about handling extremes. Are there perhaps extensive adaptation problems in your understanding of what you read? Try to read my writing twice so that you can think about the nature of my logical thought, line strokes, word by word, it shouldn't be overwhelming to understand the text. Even a 10-year-old can understand what I'm saying clearly and without the slightest distortion.

But. but... Genelec speakers get better as they get bigger, so that the studio/live sound reproduction always gets bigger and produces more believable sound patterns. Unfortunately, Atc is not able to reproduce the same quality in terms of power that Genelec can naturally produce with high quality. Atc is more or less a tool suitable for basic elevator music. An overpriced expensive speaker manufacturer and, unfortunately, it is under-functional in terms of power and bass.

This is what it is and will not change its form for anything better, unless the management of the Atc company properly grasps the idea and makes some changes to the matter. So the management of the lazy company is apparently not doing anything about it... Blame them for being lazy.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Frank Dernie


I don't think I've said anything about handling extremes. Are there perhaps extensive adaptation problems in your understanding of what you read? Try to read my writing twice so that you can think about the nature of my logical thought, line strokes, word by word, it shouldn't be overwhelming to understand the text. Even a 10-year-old can understand what I'm saying clearly and without the slightest distortion.

But. but... Genelec speakers get better as they get bigger, so that the studio/live sound reproduction always gets bigger and produces more believable sound patterns. Unfortunately, Atc is not able to reproduce the same quality in terms of power that Genelec can naturally produce with high quality. Atc is more or less a tool suitable for basic elevator music. An overpriced expensive speaker manufacturer and, unfortunately, it is under-functional in terms of power and bass.

This is what it is and will not change its form for anything better, unless the management of the Atc company properly grasps the idea and makes some changes to the matter. So the management of the lazy company is apparently not doing anything about it... Blame them for being lazy.

No I'm just trolling you because you are so sanctimonious and elitist in yout pro Genelec shilling

The alternative was put you in my ignore list.

 

[Behrelec 37]

Frank Dernie

That's what you do. Trolling is apparently a more pleasant and easier way to move forward than to seek the raw reality that my argument contains. Life is such a rocky road for many, but fortunately there are alternatives to seeing these problem stones in front of you, instead of running into them all the time.

Humor then helps you cope when you have made the wrong purchase decisions, and moves on to better paths where there are not so many stones in front of you or at all. But first it requires a deeper understanding of what stones are in front of you.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Frank Dernie

That's what you do. Trolling is apparently a more pleasant and easier way to move forward than to seek the raw reality that my argument contains. Life is such a rocky road for many, but fortunately there are alternatives to seeing these problem stones in front of you, instead of running into them all the time.

Humor then helps you cope when you have made the wrong purchase decisions, and moves on to better paths where there are not so many stones in front of you or at all. But first it requires a deeper understanding of what stones are in front of you.

Good grief onto my ignore list you go.

 

[Blockader]

But maybe they choosed the best compromise and maybe that's why they are still in the business.
If they would need to change something on their speakers to stay in business, maybe they would change them.

I would like to see some IMD measurements of the larger 3-way ATC-s, I bet they would produce low distortions.

Best compromises? No, unfortunately no.

Pairing a wide directivity midrange with a soft dome tweeter is a design oversight. Back in the 1980s, the importance of consistent or controlled directivity wasn’t clear to everyone. ATC designs are still stuck in 80s.

Before getting into why this pairing doesn’t work well, let’s go over the basics. What we hear from a speaker isn’t just the direct, on-axis sound. it’s a mix of that and the early reflections from the room. Our brain blends these sounds together within a certain time window to form what we perceive as the speaker’s sound.

For that blending to work properly, the reflected sound needs to match the direct sound fairly closely. If the two sound noticeably different, our brain can’t merge them effectively. Instead of helping, the reflections end up muddying the sound rather than adding to it.
Yes, a wide directivity midrange driver can sound more detailed than one with a narrow beamwidth especially when the bass is rolled off, as is the case with most ATC speakers (aside from their largest models). And yes, a soft dome tweeter usually has a narrower beamwidth than a metal dome, which can lead to better clarity in a room by reducing the number of high frequency reflections. With fewer reflections bouncing around, the high end can sound more focused and cleaner.

This is basically what ATC offers: a wide directivity midrange that enhances the richness and detail of the midrange, paired with a soft-dome tweeter that delivers good high frequency clarity. However, using both together introduces a certain coloration to the overall sound. The issue is that the on-axis response won't closely match the sound of the room reflections with such driver configuration.

In blind listening tests speakers with this kind of setup tend to perform not as good as, say, Genelec 8341. But in sighted tests where listeners are exposed to the speakers for just 15–20 minutes, the listener might prefer ATC’s sound, especially if they’re not trained listeners or aren’t familiar with how the track sounds on a more accurate system. That’s because ATC’s voicing can make the midrange sound lusher and more engaging and although the high frequency detail might be reduced the perceived clarity is higher due to fewer room reflections. They will call this sound "warm and rich" and justify it.

Another thing about ATC is their build quality. it’s seriously impressive. Their speakers just feel premium all around. They look professional, solid, and built like tanks. Back in the ’80s they were truly over-engineered, though that might not be the case anymore. Still, if you're an audio engineer and want your gear to look high-end and make a strong impression on clients, ATC pulls that off better than most Genelec speakers.

 

[YSDR]

a soft dome tweeter usually has a narrower beamwidth than a metal dome

Typically the opposite, because the soft dome is so soft that the sound emitting area may change, depending on the frequency, resulting in a wider dispersion than a rigid piston (metal) dome have in general.

 

[Blockader]

Typically the opposite, because the soft dome is so soft that the sound emitting area may change, depending on the frequency, resulting in a wider dispersion than a rigid piston (metal) dome have in general.

Soft dome tweeters behaves like a ring radiator in the last octave.(The center of the soft dome tweeter moves in antiphase relative to the rest of the dome) You can see that narrow directivity behavior on every ATC. Feel free to refer to any ATC measurements.

Which manifests itself as a roll off in early reflections/sound power measurements where the beamwidth narrows:

note that this early reflections roll off is higher than the roll off on the speakers on-axis response.

I found in my notes the full explanation of why soft domes behave like ring radiator:

Above a certain high frequency, a soft dome can no longer move as one stiff piston. Instead dispersive bending waves race across the dome: slower at the edges than in the center, so different zones fall out of phase. The very center then contributes little and the outer edges become the main radiating surface. In other words, the underlying reason is simply that the bending wave speed in the soft dome material is too low (and dispersive) to keep the entire dome moving as one piece at very high frequencies causing that piston‑to‑ring transition. That's why the beamwidth narrows dramatically above a certain frequency.

 

[YSDR]

Feel free to refer to any ATC measurements.

Well, I don't see any narrowing from the mentioned "anti-phase" behaviour.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/atc-scm100aslt-active-loudspeaker-review/

But let's see comparable measurements, these are the same tweeters, except one have soft fabric and the other have a rigid metal diaphragm. Guess what, the metal dome have slightly narrower dispersion because it's dome acts as a piston up to the main breakup frequency.

Metal:
https://www.dibirama.it/home-page/tweeter/475-seas-27tbc-g-tweeter-1-6-ohm-150-wmax.html

Soft fabric:
https://www.dibirama.it/home-page/tweeter/210-seas-27tdc-tweeter-1-6-ohm-150-wmax.html

Btw we talk in general, but the results may vary, depending on the actual designs.

 

[Blockader]

Well, I don't see any narrowing from the mentioned "anti-phase" behaviour.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/atc-scm100aslt-active-loudspeaker-review/

But let's see comparable measurements, these are the same tweeters, except one have soft fabric and the other have a rigid metal diaphragm. Guess what, the metal dome have slightly narrower dispersion because it's dome acts as a piston up to the main breakup frequency.

Metal:
https://www.dibirama.it/home-page/tweeter/475-seas-27tbc-g-tweeter-1-6-ohm-150-wmax.html

Soft fabric:
https://www.dibirama.it/home-page/tweeter/210-seas-27tdc-tweeter-1-6-ohm-150-wmax.html

Btw we talk in general, but the results may vary, depending on the actual designs.

I don't know what dibirama is about. Below is the official document:

you can see the insane narrowing above 15khz here. Such narrowing may exist on metal domes too, however all soft domes have beamwidth directivity increase somewhere around 10-20khz. Maybe the extremely overengineered one(I remember SEAS has one) avoids having a directivity increase in the last octave. However this is not entirely relevant to the conversation, all ATCs that were measured have off-axis response roll off above 10khz. A german magazine measured ATC SCM50, you can find the similar behavior there too.

 

[YSDR]

you can see the insane narrowing above 15khz here

Narrowing at that high frequency may not makes much difference for humans.

 

[YSDR]

Below is the official document:

Let's compare it to it's metal sibling: