ATC speakers / Monitors

[dfuller]

RE: the glass wall bit, Northward's whole thing is basically improving on the "non-environment" room design. Glass is a reflective surface, and that along with the floor is enough to make the room not seem "dead" despite a general lack of reflections off the side walls and ceiling. It's a psychoacoustic thing, from what I understand. Glass happens to be very non-resonant at the thickness they're using (it's not window glass, that is for sure). I have seen Northward rooms without it, though.

Also it looks cool.

 

[DSJR]

Domestically for this brand, the main conversation in a local audio salon's newsletter was more regarding the non-standard veneers they're now offering and how the ridiculous-when-new yellowish 'Burr Magnolia' colour becomes much nicer after a year to darken in, although it was acknowledged how much 'better' the Classic 20ASL is over its passive predecessor (which I think is still available). Also claims for the superiority of the 50 and 100 active 'se' versions, as in 'better braced and damped enclosures' and 'superior electronics' which I thought were similar but with discrete crossover boards rather than on-board chips in this area. No idea, as I didn't go (too upsetting for me personally for reasons I've shared a few times before) and the prices now asked are ridiculously high allowing for thirty years of inflation. Mind you, many other current speakers which look so similar (with tweaks) over their 90s ancestors, are at least 50% more expensive even after inflation.

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It's going to take the domestic market as a whole (what's left of it) years more to accept how much better active operation can be if the basics are right to start with. I doubt it'll matter though once my crowd have passed on, as younger folks seem to prefer little interactive boxes which make surprisingly pleasant music and speech noises if asked to... or they use earphones of one sort or another...

 

[SimonY]

Domestically for this brand, the main conversation in a local audio salon's newsletter was more regarding the non-standard veneers they're now offering and how the ridiculous-when-new yellowish 'Burr Magnolia' colour becomes much nicer after a year to darken in, although it was acknowledged how much 'better' the Classic 20ASL is over its passive predecessor (which I think is still available). Also claims for the superiority of the 50 and 100 active 'se' versions, as in 'better braced and damped enclosures' and 'superior electronics' which I thought were similar but with discrete crossover boards rather than on-board chips in this area. No idea, as I didn't go (too upsetting for me personally for reasons I've shared a few times before) and the prices now asked are ridiculously high allowing for thirty years of inflation. Mind you, many other current speakers which look so similar (with tweaks) over their 90s ancestors, are at least 50% more expensive even after inflation.

---

It's going to take the domestic market as a whole (what's left of it) years more to accept how much better active operation can be if the basics are right to start with. I doubt it'll matter though once my crowd have passed on, as younger folks seem to prefer little interactive boxes which make surprisingly pleasant music and speech noises if asked to... or they use earphones of one sort or another...

Says it all, people vote with their dollar. No brainpower required.

 

[574stereo]

You know there are a lot of people out there for whom serious cabinetwork and veneering etc is important. The speaker still needs to sound good, but they're not going to stick a Neumann or Genelec metal enclosure in their room.


If you want a simpler construction, just get the professional models. No point in moaning about the existence of a product which isn't aimed at you anyway... it's for someone else...

 

[SimonY]

You know there are a lot of people out there for whom serious cabinetwork and veneering etc is important. The speaker still needs to sound good, but they're not going to stick a Neumann or Genelec metal enclosure in their room.


If you want a simpler construction, just get the professional models. No point in moaning about the existence of a product which isn't aimed at you anyway... it's for someone else...

Brother, this degree of serious cabinet work and veneering does not cost ten thousand dollars.

edit: nor does a 6.5 inch woofer, 1inch dome and 200w amp with low distortion.

 

[SimonY]

I'm all for putting food on the table and offering a comfortable service. But you have to remember, snake oil has a burning point.

 

[DSJR]

You know there are a lot of people out there for whom serious cabinetwork and veneering etc is important. The speaker still needs to sound good, but they're not going to stick a Neumann or Genelec metal enclosure in their room.


If you want a simpler construction, just get the professional models. No point in moaning about the existence of a product which isn't aimed at you anyway... it's for someone else...

I just think it's the blatant marketeering for an inferior (in the case of the three-way passives) that gets me. Best I climb out of this hole I've just dug for myself and let the 'someone else's' do what they bloody well like

 

[DSJR]

Brother, this degree of serious cabinet work and veneering does not cost ten thousand dollars.

edit: nor does a 6.5 inch woofer, 1inch dome and 200w amp with low distortion.

Got to add - have you seen that 6.5" mid-woofer that's in the 20? I can confirm it's no weedy SB-sourced thing and is built to last centuries I suspect The cone/coil assembly is heavy enough and the entire driver more than...

 

[SimonY]

nice driver, though I'm not sure it can transcend the laws of physics.

 

[DSJR]

nice driver, though I'm not sure it can transcend the laws of physics.

The wacky higher end domestic market they're in now, they can transcend anything I suspect

The '11' driver seems more sensible and actually has a flatter response tested I believe.

 

[SimonY]

The wacky higher end domestic market they're in now, they can transcend anything I suspect

The '11' driver seems more sensible and actually has a flatter response tested I believe.

well, I'll pay 30k for it then

 

[dfuller]

The wacky higher end domestic market they're in now, they can transcend anything I suspect

The '11' driver seems more sensible and actually has a flatter response tested I believe.

See, I think the drivers in the 19/20 actually are very nice - the crossover lacks. The issue with the 19 that was measured here was that it seemed to lack baffle step correction more than anything else. Understandably that would drop sensitivity even more (it was already fairly low sensitivity speaker).

In an active, it should be pretty trivial to do.

 

[Ktacos]

Brother, this degree of serious cabinet work and veneering does not cost ten thousand dollars.

Agreed. ATC's box cabinets with veneer are probably one of the easiest to construct and veneer things ones can make. A good finish on those surfaces isn't hard to do either. MDF is really inexpensive, and veneer can be costly but a very high quality sheet can be had for under $100.

I'd put my own veneer work up against ATC's any day. Of course I had no labor costs, I wager a lot of ATC's costs are in labor.

 

[dfuller]

Of course I had no labor costs, I wager a lot of ATC's costs are in labor.

I'm sure. They're hand assembling every driver and doing the doping by hand too. Last time I checked, the boards were still hand stuffed (but they were working on bringing a surface mount pick-and-place machine online for the actives). That's skilled labor and they're not exactly in a cheap part of the world.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Move production to China
Lower price by 50%
And sell a lot more speakers
That's what I'd do

 

[Purité Audio]

One coat of glue or two do you suppose?
Keith

 

[dfuller]

Move production to China
Lower price by 50%
And sell a lot more speakers
That's what I'd do

Why would they do that?

Part of their prestige is that they do everything in house themselves. Offshoring all their manufacturing would hurt their image for no reason. On top of that, it would be increasingly easy for knockoffs to "go out the back door" of the contract manufacturer they would be using.

 

[goat76]

Move production to China
Lower price by 50%
And sell a lot more speakers
That's what I'd do

Would that be your suggestion to Genelec too?

 

[DSJR]

See, I think the drivers in the 19/20 actually are very nice - the crossover lacks. The issue with the 19 that was measured here was that it seemed to lack baffle step correction more than anything else. Understandably that would drop sensitivity even more (it was already fairly low sensitivity speaker).

In an active, it should be pretty trivial to do.

The response goes awry just where the grafted on mid-dome takes over, although I seem to recall from old white papers Billy published on the original 20, that the rise wasn't as severe as seems today (could have been massaged if not smoothed responses and squashed Y axis plot. My 1992 spec 20's sounded a little bass light, rather than upper mid forward as my 20ASL pros did (I wonder what is done to shift perceived emphasis this way?). I've not seen detailed measurements on the more conventional 11 model, but the basic response plots I've seen and the little listening I was able to do, indicate a much better balanced product, at least for general domestic use rather than plonked on or over a meter bridge.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Would that be your suggestion to Genelec too?

If in the bottom line I the customer would pay less
And there's no loss of quality
Then yes I don't see why not