According to this: https://www.stereophile.com/content/apogee-duetta-ii-loudspeaker-measurements Duettas are complete opposite to ATC in bass region. That will definitely be a source of confusion in audition.
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ATC speakers / Monitors
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Modulation Distortion in Loudspeakers - Read Research
Speakers and IM distortion
Well here is on example: Total Harmonic Distortion (THD), 2500 ohms load
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''COL. KLIPSCH: It is a matter of fact, not opinion, that a single direct radiator of small size will give a more nearly flat
response over a wider range than some larger and more complicated systems. But likewise it is a fact that a small direct - radiator speaker, say six inches in diameter, would have to perform an excursion of several inches to produce a barely audible fundamental output at a few feet distance at some low frequency like 60 cycles, which, even if possible, would result in distortion many times the fundamental output. It is also a fact that when two or more frequencies are mixed in a single piston radiator, the lower frequency amplitude will modulate the upper one, which causes the oft -referred -to inter - modulation distortion. The result of recognition of these facts is that the best loudspeaker systems now employ at least
two loudspeaker elements. The design problems entail minimizing the frequency anomolies and interferences between a pair of speakers radiating the same frequency
near a crossover point. At present, only multiple speakers have been capable of duplicating the sound to a high degree of accuracy.''
DSJR
Major Contributor
It only seemed like yesterday that the 11s were around £1200pr. Last I looked they were £1650pr, which is deemed extremely high compared to Chinese made alternatives in the UK. Sad, but that's why so much audio production had moved to the far east - cheap labour and overheads I believe.It wouldn't surprise me at all if I preferred the sound of the SCM11s over both those KEFs, even if one of them is way more expensive.
The ATCs are also likely more robust and can handle more beating before the tweeters are blown. I have had some occasions when I mistakenly played a very loud signal while mixing music, which I’m sure many other speakers wouldn't handle, including the KEFs tweeters who seem a bit fragile.
When looking at the price history for the ATC SCM11 and the KEF R3 spanning to the R3 Meta in my country, they have followed the same rise in price over the last 3 years, going up from about €1850 to €2560. So outside the UK, the made-in-China KEF R3 isn't any cheaper than the UK-made ATCs.
The difference I noticed was in the mid range and stereo imaging.
I don't even remember how the bass compared at all.
Subjectively...
The KEFs and SCM11s seem to be offering different pros/cons to each other. I was very impressed with the R3 Metas when I listened, great bass extension and very nice imaging. I did find the midrange lacked a degree of transparency and the overall tonal balance felt a bit... bright, to my ears. But that's a comment more on my personal preference, and in some rooms I can see this being an advantage.
The SCM11s are a mellower presentation, less heft in the bottom end but it seems to go deeper and feels... 'faster' (is the only way I can put it). Low-end articulation feels good. Also, they hold things together well at high volumes. You might find you want the additional low-end heft from the KEFs though, depending on taste.
Having both of these priced around the same mark makes sense from my listening experience.
The SCM11s are really great loudspeaker. I already own a pair that I use as surround speakers in my system, complementing the SCM40s as the main speakers. When they were completely new, I used the SCM11s for about 2 months as front speakers, and they worked great for that but need subwoofers for the lowest bass.
Cyling Nut
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I read the Klipsch paper many years ago. I used to love horns even with their problems, so clean sounding. I've had Altec A7, a custom 3 foot mouth Edgar horn and I copied Geddes Nathan speaker, a 2 way, with an oblate spheroid waveguide, using this "horn" for 14 years, it sounded the best by far. Downsized, got the Neumann kh120 ii and loved the flat respose etc. But after a while it reminded me of some speakers I built using inexpensive drivers with fairly flat passbands but ultimately dull sounding because a few good measurements are only part of how a speaker "sounds". Ask mixing engineers.Speakers and IM distortion
Well here is on example: Total Harmonic Distortion (THD), 2500 ohms load
''COL. KLIPSCH: It is a matter of fact, not opinion, that a single direct radiator of small size will give a more nearly flat
response over a wider range than some larger and more complicated systems. But likewise it is a fact that a small direct - radiator speaker, say six inches in diameter, would have to perform an excursion of several inches to produce a barely audible fundamental output at a few feet distance at some low frequency like 60 cycles, which, even if possible, would result in distortion many times the fundamental output. It is also a fact that when two or more frequencies are mixed in a single piston radiator, the lower frequency amplitude will modulate the upper one, which causes the oft -referred -to inter - modulation distortion. The result of recognition of these facts is that the best loudspeaker systems now employ at least
two loudspeaker elements. The design problems entail minimizing the frequency anomolies and interferences between a pair of speakers radiating the same frequency
near a crossover point. At present, only multiple speakers have been capable of duplicating the sound to a high degree of accuracy.''
If what I hear in the the kh120 is IM distortion because it is a 2 way, then that ought to be measurable. Any decent 3 way should have less IM distortion.
Having heard different ATCs all using the dome mid in some NYC mix studios several years ago and in peoples homes, that dome mid clarity always stood out as being remarkable. And using the ATC SCM25a mk2 with the dome mid range it is still remarkable.
I think we have mentioned a couple of factors if you go through the thread.
I am not certain of the measurements of the ATC, but Neumanns are known for sounding a bit dark in the farfield compared to an "average" speaker due to the slightly narrow beamwidth/steep DI. If you're using them in the farfield, that could be a possible explanation for it.
This is true for the 2 ways, especially the KH150, but not so much for the 3 ways.
The KH310 does have nice wide dispersion. I have them placed around my SCM50s, and with both sets of speakers you can move around the room and still make good decisions about things.
The 310 suffers from major headroom issues however, and the IM distortion is very noticeable compared to the ATC. I find the stock sound a little dark up high and a little thin down low but EQ fixed that very easily. They're a great speaker for sure.
I'll be selling them off them soon however as the bottom has fallen out of the Atmos mixing market and it's not generating money the way it once was. A lot of engineers are doing it on headphones (which sounds terrible).
The 310 suffers from major headroom issues however, and the IM distortion is very noticeable compared to the ATC. I find the stock sound a little dark up high and a little thin down low but EQ fixed that very easily. They're a great speaker for sure.
I'll be selling them off them soon however as the bottom has fallen out of the Atmos mixing market and it's not generating money the way it once was. A lot of engineers are doing it on headphones (which sounds terrible).
boxerfan88
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Out of curiosity, in your setup, does the 310 IM distortion happen when they are used full range? And IM distortion remain even if a subwoofer is used.
thewas
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Neumann used to have a paper on their old website showing that even for a 3-way loudspeaker the IMD can be reduced significantly with a sub (at least for the region before the mid driver operates):
It is much more apparent when used full range for sure.
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Manmade Mastering in Berlin have some pretty cool room inside a room setups using ATC. One room is using the SCM50s and another is using the SCM110s.
I'd love to hear either of those setups.
I'd love to hear either of those setups.
These are Northward rooms and I can say from experience these are hands down the best sounding studios out there.
Pity they never share any measurements of those rooms.
Keith
Keith
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