ATC SCM19 Bookshelf Speaker Review

[carlosmante]

never bothered to watch a meddle aged man simply talk there, but out of curiousity, what's wrong with him?

"meddle aged "? Are you OK?

 

[YSC]

"meddle aged "? Are you OK?

Um~ seems I am a bit drunk and didn’t spot the typo on phone

 

[Lao Lu]

Um~ seems I am a bit drunk and didn’t spot the typo on phone

a bit meddled....muddled....

 

[DSJR]

There's a lot of us about in the audio industry these days

 

[TheBatsEar]

Why aren't we talking about the waterfall measurements he made? Do we have to talk about this guy as a person instead, or is it a choice?

 

[Geert]

Why aren't we talking about the waterfall measurements he made?

Because we already discussed far more elaborate measurements 32 pages ago?

Do we have to talk about this guy as a person instead?

I think we've mainly been talking about the message he brings (replacing capacitors).

 

[ThELiZ]

Because we already discussed far more elaborate measurements 32 pages ago?

To be fair, that was for a different speaker. I’d be interested to see what is made of these measurements for the V2 version. I feel ATC has a bad rep around here based off of the measurements of one speaker.

True, good engineering should be evident throughout a speaker maker’s designs, but it’d be a bit shame to write the company off based on that one speaker.

 

[Geert]

To be fair, that was for a different speaker. I’d be interested to see what is made of these measurements for the V2 version.

That's a valid point. Unfortunately the measurements in the video don't cover the full audio spectrum.

What can we say about this response? Doesn't look particularly good or bad I guess. Except for the high end having lower amplitude, as mentioned in the video. Or are the mids elevated, difficult to assess without a view on the low end? And maybe a dip at the crossover point?

 

[DSJR]

I doubt any ATC will measure like Genelecs and the best of Harman as they don't appear to use DSP currently.

The 19 is a lower cost slightly dumbed down version of the 20 (now 20SL) and I was told at the time the 20 was usually used, at least at first before the active model took over, perched on or over meter bridges in control rooms. This happens to help smaller UK listening rooms where bass goes potty with 'flat' or 'boomy port' models. Those of you with larger rooms just won't understand this as such a speaker will sound too lean and power hungry.

Having said that, many/most active pro models have switches to do similar things on the bass for close to wall mounting and of course many Chinese made models are very cheap indeed, offering great value. Sadly it may be more difficult to get to listen to any before purchase. My active ATC 20ASL Pros of old had a bass 'lift' control and I used them a couple of notches up to make the balance a touch more natural to me. Like many smaller boxes though, the bass didn't 'breathe' as I'd like and back then in 2008, the old Vifa based tweeters couldn't be updated to the tweeter they were then using, at least on mine (I was quoted £1500 for the tweeters plus new baffles which was what the used price of the speakers was, so I passed and sold them). Below a screenshot from an NS10 article, where many circa 2000 alternatives were measured at Southampton University (I think it was). See the similar response from the 20ASL pro's to the 19V1. The German Lowbeats site linked below measured (crudely?) the 19v2 and apart from a mode (room?) at 60Hz or so, there does seem a suckout in the mid bass, but not sure if this is room related or not..

https://www.lowbeats.de/test-atc-scm19-bestes-kompaktboxen-angebot-unter-3-000-euro/

 

[Chrise36]

That's a valid point. Unfortunately the measurements in the video don't cover the full audio spectrum.

View attachment 137190

What can we say about this response? Doesn't look particularly good or bad I guess. Except for the high end having lower amplitude, as mentioned in the video. Or are the mids elevated, difficult to assess without a view on the low end? And maybe a dip at the crossover point?

The closer you measure the better the response looks.Also the room plays major role in these kind of measurements.

 

[jmillar]

ATC are known for having overdamped bass and need a sub in my opinion. Anyway the manual also says if the balance is bass light the monitors can be moved towards the back walls is there a chance Amir can measure them like this?These are supposed to be bookshelf speakers from their home line they could be designed for this.Is there a chance Amir will be measuring any of their 3 ways with the famous midrange it is cosidered one of the best midranges like the 40 or the 50?

Acoustic suspension speakers have usually had a rolled off bass starting at 70-80 Hz or so. My family KLH Model 6 compensated for that in having a stonking big woofer. (Modern woofers look laughable in comparison). This kind of big, chunky speaker (AR, KLH) was marketed as a bookshelf and people actually put them in shelves, and often not far from sidewalls or corners.

Room gain probably compensated a LOT for the bass roll off, since they were "chesty" sounding speakers, with quite noticeable bass colour. Let's face it: there is a lot of 60's tecnology in ATC, but if treated as such they are acceptable. Of course for the price there are much better choices.

 

[TheBatsEar]

I read that the new version uses in-house tweeter. That seems like the wrong problem to try to solve. They should fix the woofer first.

Not sure if it was mentioned before, but the woofer and network look very different as well.

 

[Chrise36]

Acoustic suspension speakers have usually had a rolled off bass starting at 70-80 Hz or so. My family KLH Model 6 compensated for that in having a stonking big woofer. (Modern woofers look laughable in comparison). This kind of big, chunky speaker (AR, KLH) was marketed as a bookshelf and people actually put them in shelves, and often not far from sidewalls or corners.

Room gain probably compensated a LOT for the bass roll off, since they were "chesty" sounding speakers, with quite noticeable bass colour. Let's face it: there is a lot of 60's tecnology in ATC, but if treated as such they are acceptable. Of course for the price there are much better choices.

Only big electrostats or some horn type speakers have impressed me as much or better than the 3 way atc which would not be suitable for my listening room anyway

 

[Liya]

Linn and Naim 'parted company' back in 1985 - do keep up

ATC know full well what they're doing and measure every speaker they make, or at least used to. These old 19's were designed that way for a reason!!! You lot may laugh because they don't look as good as Harman designed models, but with the SL driver introduction, the 50's too developed a slightly elevated upper mid balance (can't speak for the big ones in the noughties as I wasn't dealing with ATC at this time). My 20ASL pro's definitely had a similar response shape (as measured in an article on SoS I think it was) and mainly concerning the NS10 which has a seriously nasty peak above 1khz (but which worked very well on a bookshelf).

To suggest these are small 'toy' speakers is a reflection of the room size the person making the comment is used to. I suspect his favoured speakers wouldn't work in a smaller room.

Not sure if Billy Woodman designed these as he did the previous 10 and 20 models and he certainly doesn't appear to have had much input on the very latest models as I believe he's basically retired from day to day business (although he's always 'there' in the background I was told).

Here's the article I was trying to find, an 'appreciation of the NS10 plus response plots of the usual suspects of twenty years or so ago INCLUDING the original SCM 20 ASL Pro model I once owned (I doubt it was the older tower actives that were tested). The active 20ASL Pro had a bass lift adjustment which helped a bit, but by then the Vifa tweeter was showing its age in added grittiness on my pair and it was uneconomic to replace with the intermediate tweeter as it would have involved new baffles. I made good money on the sale, but these days really miss the tactile quality a decent monitor has.

https://dt7v1i9vyp3mf.cloudfront.net/assetlibrary/n/ns10m.pdf

Thank you for the link!
All these 'Harman speakers sounds to me like car stereo at best.

Linn and Naim 'parted company' back in 1985 - do keep up

ATC know full well what they're doing and measure every speaker they make, or at least used to. These old 19's were designed that way for a reason!!! You lot may laugh because they don't look as good as Harman designed models, but with the SL driver introduction, the 50's too developed a slightly elevated upper mid balance (can't speak for the big ones in the noughties as I wasn't dealing with ATC at this time). My 20ASL pro's definitely had a similar response shape (as measured in an article on SoS I think it was) and mainly concerning the NS10 which has a seriously nasty peak above 1khz (but which worked very well on a bookshelf).

To suggest these are small 'toy' speakers is a reflection of the room size the person making the comment is used to. I suspect his favoured speakers wouldn't work in a smaller room.

Not sure if Billy Woodman designed these as he did the previous 10 and 20 models and he certainly doesn't appear to have had much input on the very latest models as I believe he's basically retired from day to day business (although he's always 'there' in the background I was told).

Here's the article I was trying to find, an 'appreciation of the NS10 plus response plots of the usual suspects of twenty years or so ago INCLUDING the original SCM 20 ASL Pro model I once owned (I doubt it was the older tower actives that were tested). The active 20ASL Pro had a bass lift adjustment which helped a bit, but by then the Vifa tweeter was showing its age in added grittiness on my pair and it was uneconomic to replace with the intermediate tweeter as it would have involved new baffles. I made good money on the sale, but these days really miss the tactile quality a decent monitor has.

https://dt7v1i9vyp3mf.cloudfront.net/assetlibrary/n/ns10m.pdf

Thank you for the link.
When comparing ATC SCM20A (latest) with Revel M16 I found that the Revels make various recordings sound very similar (don't want to same 'same', but that wouldnt be far from truth) while the SCM20s differentiate the recordings more easilly, so one record sound actually different than the other. Also, with Revels there's the same bass thump present (many times with speach!). Is this preferred response?

 

[Ilkless]

Thank you for the link!
All these 'Harman speakers sounds to me like car stereo at best.

This is textbook cognitive bias based on the cost, comparative rarity and exclusivity of ATC speakers. Just because ATC speakers are more exclusive and expensive does not equate to intrinsically superior performance. But the brain is notoriously susceptible to being swayed by origin stories in audio equipment.

It is difficult to accept that a mass market brand (like Harman) can do better than some small dedicated company like ATC.

Thank you for the link.
When comparing ATC SCM20A (latest) with Revel M16 I found that the Revels make various recordings sound very similar (don't want to same 'same', but that wouldnt be far from truth) while the SCM20s differentiate the recordings more easilly, so one record sound actually different than the other.

Your "different" implies an incompetent speaker that imparts an inconsistent and varying colouration on each recording (this is backed by the laughably inconsistent dispersion that has been measured) you misinterpret as revealing of differences in recording.

Also, with Revels there's the same bass thump present (many times with speach!). Is this preferred response?

You, being clearly an audiophile craving mystique over verifiable performance, means your evaluations are irreversibly tainted and can't be taken seriously. Consider the possibility of room modes being excited by deeper extension of Revel.

Just because two wrongs happened to make a right in your room in the bass doesn't make the ATC a competent design.

 

[Liya]

I don't own Revel or ATC and I haven't compared them in my room. I'm not in love with ATC, but I am even less with love with speakers like Revel.
Anyway, M16 were boomy while 20s weren't. For me, any boomy speaker is out.
Btw, number of assumptions in your post is strange.
Sorry, I wont follow another cult.

 

[nahuel]

This should be a great reference speaker for mixing midrange. I have and use avantone mixcubes and find them useful, but this would be a superior midrange reference, like NS10s but surely better in every way.

 

[dfuller]

Also, with Revels there's the same bass thump present (many times with speach!). Is this preferred response?

The M16 has an upper bass hump. That's why it sounds boomy. I would also prefer the ATC's response, but that's just me.

 

[Chrise36]

This is textbook cognitive bias based on the cost, comparative rarity and exclusivity of ATC speakers. Just because ATC speakers are more exclusive and expensive does not equate to intrinsically superior performance. But the brain is notoriously susceptible to being swayed by origin stories in audio equipment.

It is difficult to accept that a mass market brand (like Harman) can do better than some small dedicated company like ATC.



Your "different" implies an incompetent speaker that imparts an inconsistent and varying colouration on each recording (this is backed by the laughably inconsistent dispersion that has been measured) you misinterpret as revealing of differences in recording.



You, being clearly an audiophile craving mystique over verifiable performance, means your evaluations are irreversibly tainted and can't be taken seriously. Consider the possibility of room modes being excited by deeper extension of Revel.

Just because two wrongs happened to make a right in your room in the bass doesn't make the ATC a competent design.

You should look at the Wilson Tunetot review again

 

[DSJR]

I knew next to little about ATC when I sought them out back in 1991. I was invited to the factory (I'd been to other maker's factories so not swayed especially I felt). But the thing is (ilkless), I bought into the brand because I liked what I heard, I liked the directors after many chats with them and the dedication of the staff behind the company and, for a few years, my 'audio journey' completely ended!!! Getting married and putting my money elsewhere has brought about a lot of the same confusion and angst over the sound at home that non-industry enthusiasts suffer, as NONE of the speakers I've had since selling the 100A's have satisfied and I've messed about trying to optimise one 'character' against another to ill effect (as you'd understand as 'good' amps generally don't sound audibly different and neither do 'good' sources really), the subjective results being more placebo than anything else (you wonder why I'm more objectively based than ever bearing in mind my background? I've been fooled once or twice too damned often!!!).

Now, I fully appreciate that all this was thirty years back and things never EVER stay the same in any aspect of life over such a time and ATC is run day-to-day by different people although I believe Billy is still in overall charge in his retirement. Speakers are allowed to be developed and improved over this intervening period and I'd be a bigger fool than I am if I ignored the Neumanns, Genelecs, Kii's, D&D's and other new brands with a serious story to tell. I still love listening to music through various ATC's though and would happily own another pair of their three way active models especially and to hell with anything else (having the factory a few hours drive away helps too) had I the funds to do so. The 'furniture look' of their classic series appeals to me as well (a nicely veneered box with properly designed traditional grille, not the thin wall curvy-cabs with mesh fronts of their cheaper domestic boxes).

I heard the latest spec 100A's a few years back at a local show... I'd forgotten how damned deep the carcasses are and the stands were SPIKED FFS!!! - In my day, you plonk 'em down and the sheer mass of the things crushes any carpet pile beneath into total submission I stood there hearing a vinyl record being played (yes, you heard me right) and had tears in my eyes of joy and recognition, enhanced when the demonstrator switched to a more neutral digital source (ATC's always worked with good well-specced vinyl, as long as it wasn't a contrived audiophool vinyl confection costing thousands with massive response errors). Similar things happened when I heard the Kii Threes (minus BXT's) with their 'controller' in a small room and with a digital source - the Kii's actually sounded almost 'sweet toned' to me, dispelling any audiophool notions of Class D amps sounding 'inferior!.'