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ATC active 50’s Yew !

watchnerd

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Would you mind articulating the DSP advantages that cannot be achieved via analog means and methods?

There are few things that are truly impossible, but many are certainly harder / more expensive to do in analog filters, especially if trying to do all at once:

1. Phase coherence for filters higher than 1st order
2. Time alignment
3. PEQ for driver / cabinet correction
4. Fully custom slopes (e.g. 13.7 dB per octave instead of 12 dB)
5. No worry about parts tolerances (compared to passive analog)
 
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c1ferrari

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There are few things that are truly impossible, but many are certainly harder / more expensive to do in analog filters, especially if trying to do all at once:

Yes, agreed! Thank you for your reply. :)
 

9radua1

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Thread revival due to just having received the ATC scm40a v2 actives. I shopped around between these, the 8C, the genelec 8351, and the Buchardt A500 (only heard at a show). I really wanted to go with the 8C or gens....at the end of the day, the spell of the ATC midrange got me. I just could not shake it, even though the gens sounded “better” in terms of tonal balance and bass slam, they just didn’t tickle my fancy. I do use DSP crossed subs with the ATCs, and Dirac Live for the bottom 3-4 octaves, and in a treated room. So that’s part of it...

Sorry for the subjective assessment. I will put up some measurements of the ATCs when I get a chance (I don’t see any on ASR).
 

pozz

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Thread revival due to just having received the ATC scm40a v2 actives. I shopped around between these, the 8C, the genelec 8351, and the Buchardt A500 (only heard at a show). I really wanted to go with the 8C or gens....at the end of the day, the spell of the ATC midrange got me. I just could not shake it, even though the gens sounded “better” in terms of tonal balance and bass slam, they just didn’t tickle my fancy. I do use DSP crossed subs with the ATCs, and Dirac Live for the bottom 3-4 octaves, and in a treated room. So that’s part of it...

Sorry for the subjective assessment. I will put up some measurements of the ATCs when I get a chance (I don’t see any on ASR).
ATCs have kind of uneven response on and off-axis. The "slam" you heard is just that. Their midrange driver has a prominent resonance around 5kHz too.
 

9radua1

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ATCs have kind of uneven response on and off-axis. The "slam" you heard is just that. Their midrange driver has a prominent resonance around 5kHz too.

I was referring to the genelecs having better slam. The ATCs don’t have big bass at all - in fact, very lean (hence the subs).

Yeah, the 5k resonance is noticeable, but not overly so. I think it disappears somewhat in the total reverberant field and isn’t as audible as measurements would indicate.

I am more sceptical of the tweeter peak at 10k. Again, I think it is tuned more toward the total reverberant field and power response (45 degree off axis response of a 25mm tweeter will be roughly -6dB at 10kHz due to the finite size of the diaphragm) - still, it is a bit bright for some.
 

Vintage57

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I was referring to the genelecs having better slam. The ATCs don’t have big bass at all - in fact, very lean (hence the subs).

Yeah, the 5k resonance is noticeable, but not overly so. I think it disappears somewhat in the total reverberant field and isn’t as audible as measurements would indicate.

I am more sceptical of the tweeter peak at 10k. Again, I think it is tuned more toward the total reverberant field and power response (45 degree off axis response of a 25mm tweeter will be roughly -6dB at 10kHz due to the finite size of the diaphragm) - still, it is a bit bright for some.

I agree with your observations and have a question? As a fan of midrange domes, why did you not try the Neumann KH420, not as pretty as the ATC’s but a midrange dome that is as flat and louder, cleaner than the ATC’s, and with real bass. I’m speaking from personal experience.
 

9radua1

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Here’s the FR measured by Stereoplay (heavily smoothed, of course).

1A3BF042-9F78-4483-A388-50B72A329C70.jpeg
 

watchnerd

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Thread revival due to just having received the ATC scm40a v2 actives. I shopped around between these, the 8C, the genelec 8351, and the Buchardt A500 (only heard at a show). I really wanted to go with the 8C or gens....at the end of the day, the spell of the ATC midrange got me. I just could not shake it, even though the gens sounded “better” in terms of tonal balance and bass slam, they just didn’t tickle my fancy. I do use DSP crossed subs with the ATCs, and Dirac Live for the bottom 3-4 octaves, and in a treated room. So that’s part of it...

Sorry for the subjective assessment. I will put up some measurements of the ATCs when I get a chance (I don’t see any on ASR).

I'm with you.

I don't own them, but I've heard them in a friend's set up.

I'm not saying they're objectively better than the Genelecs, but the ATCs have a certain je ne sais quoi.
 

9radua1

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I agree with your observations and have a question? As a fan of midrange domes, why did you not try the Neumann KH420, not as pretty as the ATC’s but a midrange dome that is as flat and louder, cleaner than the ATC’s, and with real bass. I’m speaking fro, personal experience.

TBH, I couldn’t audition them here without paying for them. I would have to order them home from Germany, paid, and it just seemed like a hassle. I did hear them once in a studio setup, and they sounded good. Perhaps a bit “recessed” mids compared to ATC - but this is based on fallible auditory memory. ATCs are sort of “mid forward”, so perhaps this is just my preference? But, yes I would like to have tried the Neumanns.

Also, aesthetics do matter, as the room is partly a family room as well :)
 

Vintage57

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Fair enough.
 

pozz

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I was referring to the genelecs having better slam. The ATCs don’t have big bass at all - in fact, very lean (hence the subs).

Yeah, the 5k resonance is noticeable, but not overly so. I think it disappears somewhat in the total reverberant field and isn’t as audible as measurements would indicate.

I am more sceptical of the tweeter peak at 10k. Again, I think it is tuned more toward the total reverberant field and power response (45 degree off axis response of a 25mm tweeter will be roughly -6dB at 10kHz due to the finite size of the diaphragm) - still, it is a bit bright for some.
My mistake. I misread your post.
 

Ilkless

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I agree with your observations and have a question? As a fan of midrange domes, why did you not try the Neumann KH420, not as pretty as the ATC’s but a midrange dome that is as flat and louder, cleaner than the ATC’s, and with real bass. I’m speaking from personal experience.

Not just cleaner. 10dB - ie. 10 times (dBs are logarithmic) - cleaner. The dome is incredible. Obliterates the ATC one. And the 420 is a revelation despite it's age.
 

watchnerd

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Not just cleaner. 10dB - ie. 10 times (dBs are logarithmic) - cleaner. The dome is incredible. Obliterates the ATC one. And the 420 is a revelation despite it's age.

According to Neuman:

"The KH 420 is designed for a working distance of 1.5 to 3 m (5’ to 9’)"

That seems incredibly conservative if the KH 420 midrange really is 10 dB more dynamic than the ATC, as the ATCs I've heard are quite capable at distances greater than 3 m / 9 feet.....
 

Ilkless

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According to Neuman:

"The KH 420 is designed for a working distance of 1.5 to 3 m (5’ to 9’)"

That seems incredibly conservative if the KH 420 midrange really is 10 dB more dynamic than the ATC, as the ATCs I've heard are quite capable at distances greater than 3 m / 9 feet.....

Both were tested independently in the same chamber and similar conditions, and the Neumann is really 10dB more dynamic.
 

9radua1

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Both were tested independently in the same chamber and similar conditions, and the Neumann is really 10dB more dynamic.

Yes, it certainly looks like it. Wasn’t those measurements made by Neumann themselves? There’s some contention over on DIYaudio as to the thd figures and implementation, as the measurements wasn’t on ATCs own implementation.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/249738-dome-midrange-design-atc-post4875945.html

Troels Gravesen did his own test on the ATC dome, which is also interesting (since he was also a skeptic). Looks very smooth.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATC-SM75-150.htm
 
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kaka89

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Thread revival due to just having received the ATC scm40a v2 actives. I shopped around between these, the 8C, the genelec 8351, and the Buchardt A500 (only heard at a show). I really wanted to go with the 8C or gens....at the end of the day, the spell of the ATC midrange got me. I just could not shake it, even though the gens sounded “better” in terms of tonal balance and bass slam, they just didn’t tickle my fancy. I do use DSP crossed subs with the ATCs, and Dirac Live for the bottom 3-4 octaves, and in a treated room. So that’s part of it...

Sorry for the subjective assessment. I will put up some measurements of the ATCs when I get a chance (I don’t see any on ASR).

I also own a ATC SCM 40 passive.

The dip in 3000Hz is quite noticeable though, as shown in Stereoplay's measurement.
Lucky I got a RME ADI-2 DAC to EQ that area. (+3db Q1)

I still want to upgrade to 8C eventually, but they are a bit over my budget now and a bit too big for my room.
I will enjoy my ATC for now until I move to a new place.
 

9radua1

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I also own a ATC SCM 40 passive.

The dip in 3000Hz is quite noticeable though, as shown in Stereoplay's measurement.
Lucky I got a RME ADI-2 DAC to EQ that area. (+3db Q1)

I had the passives over for a few weeks as well. The midrange is quite different between the active and passive 40s - probably due to sharper electronic xo-filters and a more even phase response. For me, I took the treble down with a broad Q minus 3 dB, which I think integrated better between mids and highs. With the actives I don’t do that, since the 2k to 6k balance seem more natural (to me). I use the miniDSP SHD.
 

Ilkless

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Yes, it certainly looks like it. Wasn’t those measurements made by Neumann themselves? There’s some contention over on DIYaudio as to the thd figures and implementation, as the measurements wasn’t on ATCs own implementation.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/249738-dome-midrange-design-atc-post4875945.html

Troels Gravesen did his own test on the ATC dome, which is also interesting (since he was also a skeptic). Looks very smooth.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATC-SM75-150.htm

No, both were independently-measured by Anselm Goertz for Sound and Recording magazine at a university's anechoic chamber. The ATC dome was on an ATC pro speaker (SCM25), the Neumann on the KH420. The woofers are different;y-sized, so focus on the midrange passband from 350Hz-5kHz, where the dome is doing the work. There is no excuse for ATC - it's all just cult of personality.
 

9radua1

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No, both were independently-measured by Anselm Goertz for Sound and Recording magazine at a university's anechoic chamber. The ATC dome was on an ATC pro speaker (SCM25), the Neumann on the KH420. The woofers are different;y-sized, so focus on the midrange passband from 350Hz-5kHz, where the dome is doing the work. There is no excuse for ATC - it's all just cult of personality.

Yes, that’s certainly a popular trope. I remember people saying a similar thing about the Amphions and the nearfield market. I think that’s quite normal.

In any case, there’s certainly a mid-centric British preference, like there’s an American LF-centric preference among studio guys. Translates to the music coming out of it too, which I don’t think is a bad thing.

Do you know if Goertz measured the S-spec version too?
 
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