Assistance to power a 7.2.4 home theatre/Stereo setup.

[Holmz]

I appreciate the general recommendations. However, I was hoping to get into more in-depth conversation about matching the right amplifier to match the sound of Focal Utopia speakers.

it seems there is a quite divide between Focal sellers/owners or reviewers such as Steve Huff, Jays Audio Lab insisting on Class AB to match the sound of these speakers compared to this forum saying the science says Purifi or Hypex can't be beaten.

I mean the power specs on Hypex/Purifi amps look amazing. But, will it give the right sound?

OK - here we go…
The satellite espeakers need to match the mains. Like the same crossover slopes and timbre.
Certainly between a center and L/R and the sub.
The surrounds channels might not overlap with the center and mains as much…

I have run ~5k$ tube amp and a 70$ AIYAMA A-70, and there is not a lot in it.
Right now I have an old NAD and AIYAMAs servicing different channels.
I’ll likely change it, but it is not the long pole in the tent… the speakers are.

Then the room, and sub(s). But many AVRs EQ the room, and subs are not required by law.

 

[JustJones]

I appreciate the general recommendations. However, I was hoping to get into more in-depth conversation about matching the right amplifier to match the sound of Focal Utopia speakers.

it seems there is a quite divide between Focal sellers/owners or reviewers such as Steve Huff, Jays Audio Lab insisting on Class AB to match the sound of these speakers compared to this forum saying the science says Purifi or Hypex can't be beaten.

I mean the power specs on Hypex/Purifi amps look amazing. But, will it give the right sound?

As long as the amplifier is kept within its operating parameters it doesn't matter if it's class A/B or D . The amplifiers job is to amplify the signal without adding to the "sound". Matching amps and speakers to aquire a certain sound ( unless we're talking about crazy impedance speakers or purpose built amps) is audiophile woo. You have a Storm ISP with Dirac so I wouldn't worry about trying to get a sound with amp-speaker matching.

 

[GXAlan]

There is a belief that belt driven turntables sound better than many direct drive servos besides steadily being a bit slow or fast is better sounding than the constant oscillation of a servo. Whether true or not, I don’t know.

Within amplifiers, there is a belief that all amplifiers sound more alike than different provided that the amplifier isn’t clipping and the damping factor is sufficient. This belief is pretty well established as accurate under blind testing. For that reason, go with class D and you will be happy. Meyer Sound, which powers life Broadway shows and concerts, Genelec which powers recording studios, and Trinnov and Storm Audio themselves (along with Lyngdorf) have all gone Class D with no concerns about quality.

There remains a belief that Class A sounds different, when it shouldn’t. It remains a fact that tube amps continue to sell well and I challenge someone to walk into a room, listen to a familiar piece on a tube amp, and without a back and forth comparison be able to tell me if it’s a tube or solid state system.

Class A amplifiers tend to have very steady appearing distortion versus frequency and distortion versus level. Tube amps, until clipping, tend to do this too. Class D amps don’t do this.

Class D amps tend to have a big jump in distortion after a certain sound. That jump is still lower distortion that most Class A/AB systems but represents a jump or difference.

Your Focal speakers are very efficient so you may never hit that jump.

THEN, Class D typically has very low idle noise (the ones you are considering). Noise indefinitely audible with huge multichannel systems.

So, you are in the position to have the luxury of picking any amp you want and probably getting very good sound. I would get the Marantz AMP10 since it satisfies all your requirements. It has a lot of power, measures pretty well, has Marantz’s reliability and on the off chance that musicality is audible on some specific scenario, you have peace of mind that the AMP10 has HDAMs which someone decided sounds different than chip op amps.

 

[michael123]

If I understand correctly you already own the Storm ISP ? I believe it has Dirac Live ART? If so I would look at combination of multichannel amps from Buckeye, ATI, NAD , etc... for example 3 channel for front/ center and 4 or 6 channel for the rest depending on need. More powerful for front could be an option.

Yes, If I go down the full Class D route. I would go with Purifi with one of the above brands. I was still strongly recommended only to stick to Class A/B for the FL,FR, in. particular because I listen to music.

 

[michael123]

There is a belief that belt driven turntables sound better than many direct drive servos besides steadily being a bit slow or fast is better sounding than the constant oscillation of a servo. Whether true or not, I don’t know.

Within amplifiers, there is a belief that all amplifiers sound more alike than different provided that the amplifier isn’t clipping and the damping factor is sufficient. This belief is pretty well established as accurate under blind testing. For that reason, go with class D and you will be happy. Meyer Sound, which powers life Broadway shows and concerts, Genelec which powers recording studios, and Trinnov and Storm Audio themselves (along with Lyngdorf) have all gone Class D with no concerns about quality.

There remains a belief that Class A sounds different, when it shouldn’t. It remains a fact that tube amps continue to sell well and I challenge someone to walk into a room, listen to a familiar piece on a tube amp, and without a back and forth comparison be able to tell me if it’s a tube or solid state system.

Class A amplifiers tend to have very steady appearing distortion versus frequency and distortion versus level. Tube amps, until clipping, tend to do this too. Class D amps don’t do this.

Class D amps tend to have a big jump in distortion after a certain sound. That jump is still lower distortion that most Class A/AB systems but represents a jump or difference.

Your Focal speakers are very efficient so you may never hit that jump.

THEN, Class D typically has very low idle noise (the ones you are considering). Noise indefinitely audible with huge multichannel systems.

So, you are in the position to have the luxury of picking any amp you want and probably getting very good sound. I would get the Marantz AMP10 since it satisfies all your requirements. It has a lot of power, measures pretty well, has Marantz’s reliability and on the off chance that musicality is audible on some specific scenario, you have peace of mind that the AMP10 has HDAMs which someone decided sounds different than chip op amps.

Is this debate like that of the V8 combustion engine vs newer Turbo or Hybrid engines? As someone who likes my cars, there is nothing that will make me sell my V8's for a Turbo or Hybrid despite them having more power. There is so much more noticeable feel & soul driving naturally aspirated V8 engine compared to a Turbo or Hybrid. However, a modern Turbo driver might say 'who cares about the feel and soul, I have more power for less money and can beat you on the track.'

Or, is this a different argument as the V8 has noticeably different characteristics such as the sound, feel soul. Unlike a modern Class D to Class AB debate, theoretically should have the same characteristics by simply amplifying the sound? The only variable is the Class D is half the cost which equates to more power for less money.

 

[NTK]

Is this debate like that of the V8 combustion engine vs newer Turbo or Hybrid engines? As someone who likes my cars, there is nothing that will make me sell my V8's for a Turbo or Hybrid despite them having more power. There is so much more noticeable feel & soul driving naturally aspirated V8 engine compared to a Turbo or Hybrid. However, a modern Turbo driver might say 'who cares about the feel and soul, I have more power for less money and can beat you on the track.'

Or, is this a different argument as the V8 has noticeably different characteristics such as the sound, feel soul. Unlike a modern Class D to Class AB debate, theoretically should have the same characteristics by simply amplifying the sound? The only variable is the Class D is half the cost which equates to more power for less money.

Audio power amplifiers serve a much simpler function than cars. The only function of an amplifier (if you ignore the strictly non-audio related ones) is to boost the input electrical signal to a higher level. Therefore, any differences in amplifiers can be completely judged by comparing their measured electrical outputs.

Outputs from both well engineered class AB and class D amplifiers, when operating within their design limits and for the purpose of audio reproduction, are practically identical, and far below the abilities of our ears to be able to distinguish the differences.

 

[GXAlan]

Is this debate like that of the V8 combustion engine vs newer Turbo or Hybrid engines? As someone who likes my cars, there is nothing that will make me sell my V8's for a Turbo or Hybrid despite them having more power. There is so much more noticeable feel & soul driving naturally aspirated V8 engine compared to a Turbo or Hybrid. However, a modern Turbo driver might say 'who cares about the feel and soul, I have more power for less money and can beat you on the track.'

Or, is this a different argument as the V8 has noticeably different characteristics such as the sound, feel soul. Unlike a modern Class D to Class AB debate, theoretically should have the same characteristics by simply amplifying the sound? The only variable is the Class D is half the cost which equates to more power for less money.

Sort of. The analogy is appropriate but as you say, theoretically, all amplifiers will sound far more similar than different regardless of glass as long as
1) you don’t have noise at idle
2) you room is not extraordinarily large (which means you are playing well under 5 watts most of the time).

So you really can pick a first generation Tripath chip amp and still enjoy your Focal’s quite a bit.

However, power demands increase exponentially so you are likely to clip if you just had a 5W amp. Likewise, reliability is different.

Look carefully at the Marantz AMP10 at “street prices”.

It doesn’t measure as well as a DIY HypeX Nilai, but I would argue that the integration, cooling, and reliability will put it ahead in real world use. The Marantz PM-10 used basic HypeX modules but have several custom speaker protection mechanisms which will be important for you.

 

[JustJones]

I was still strongly recommended only to stick to Class A/B for the FL,FR, in. particular because I listen to music.

I haven't seen anyone here strongly recommend class A/B , there are good ones if you want. I'm not sure what music has to do with it the amp doesn't know what the signal is representing, music or Marlon Brando yelling STELLA.

 

[GXAlan]

Yes, If I go down the full Class D route. I would go with Purifi with one of the above brands. I was still strongly recommended only to stick to Class A/B for the FL,FR, in. particular because I listen to music.

You are asking opinions from a group of science minded fellow audiophiles and you are getting recommendations from a dealer who is incentivized to sell you a ton of a stuff. I don’t believe that all amplifiers sound the same, and have worked to try to capture the differences and do ABX testing. This is because “well designed, within limits” is a lot more variable than we might think when running into dynamic loads. You run into various limits far sooner than you think and the variability in dynamic loads means that “level matching” is impossible because matching a 1 kHz sine wave using a multimeter/ADC and then recording actual music electrically will show differences in peak vs RMS SPL that may match threshold of audibility.

But the difference is SO vanishingly small that adding more subwoofers or even upgrading to the next level up in the Focal lineup is smarter.

I have owned Class A Accuphase gear, Class G Arcam, Class A SET Western Electric 300B amplifiers, Class D Marantz PM-10 (HypeX), Class AB Marantz PM11se2 (Class AB), Monolith 8125X (HypeX), Class AB Proceed (Mark Levinson 400 series), Class AB Parasound (John Curl flagship), McIntosh MC2102 (with GE 6550’s), Class AB Kenwood L-08m and even the Class AB Yamaha MX-A5000 and Sony TA-N9000ES, etc.

I love to listen to music too. But do you know what amp I use now? The Class D amps inside my Meyer Sound gear…

My Linn LP12 to Luxman LXV-OT10 to Trinnov Altitude 32 to Meyer Sound Amie setup (and Sony SACD->PCM->Trinnov) have given me the absolute best sound I have experienced in the hobby to date.

If I had to advice a 21 year audiophile hobbyist today, it would be to buy the JBL 308P and then put the audiophile upgrade budget into an index fund every year. In 10 years, go one and done with a premium Genelec, Neumann, or Meyer Sound system with a Storm Audio / Trinnov DSP on the front end.

The speakers make an even bigger difference than the DSP, but the DSP is a close second.

You already have great speakers and great DSP. Save some money on the amplification and put it into additional subwoofers since you have Dirac ART and things like Kaleidescape for movies and your heart’s desire for physical media.

 

[michael123]

Thanks Alan, I understand and Agree with what you are saying and thanks to this Forum and people such as yourself I initially turned down the Class A/B Amp. Now my mind is set I am 100% sticking to the Hypex/Purifi Amps.

Are all Hypex/Purifi Amps made equal as they use the same components? Can say the Apollon be better quality build using the same Modules as the Nord?

 

[Chrispy]

No, I don't have any amps currently...

I assumed you already had amps since you mentioned you had a system and were asking about adding something just for 2ch use. I think your expectation that certain amps match up better for music with your particular speakers is not realistic (let alone using 11 monobloc amps).

 

[GXAlan]

Are all Hypex/Purifi Amps made equal as they use the same components? Can say the Apollon be better quality build using the same Modules as the Nord?

Not really. The input buffer and power supply can be different. Apollon and Nord may be similar (or Buckeye) but something like the Lyngdorf MXA-8400 is different, despite using Purifi modules.

If you have a large enough budget for amps and upgraded speakers, consider that.

 

[Holmz]

Thanks Alan, I understand and Agree with what you are saying and thanks to this Forum and people such as yourself I initially turned down the Class A/B Amp. Now my mind is set I am 100% sticking to the Hypex/Purifi Amps.

Are all Hypex/Purifi Amps made equal as they use the same components? Can say the Apollon be better quality build using the same Modules as the Nord?

In the antipodes one could use a March Audio 501 (I think) for the LF and RF.
They sounded pretty good when I heard them… I think Allopon is Eu??… and Buckeye is US.

Back to my initial discussion points…
If you went for LF/RF amps, then whether you want some 11 channel HY amp, or just use outboard mono amps is a choice.

Pros:

• Short speaker cables
• Easier to run balanced signal cable
• Can run different amps for the C, LF and RF.
  • If you really wanted to, you could run the Class-AB for LF/RF, etc.
  • There is not down side to running a Class-AB for the fronts, or whatever… the Class-D starts to make sense when the speaker impedance gets challenging.

Cons:

• Maybe more cost

 

[michael123]

Hi Holmz , no I am not doing class AB. I am going for Purifi module and thinking 2 x monobloks + an 11 channel multichanel with less power for the surrounds.

 

[michael123]

Not really. The input buffer and power supply can be different. Apollon and Nord may be similar (or Buckeye) but something like the Lyngdorf MXA-8400 is different, despite using Purifi modules.

If you have a large enough budget for amps and upgraded speakers, consider that.

Nord seems half the price of the Apollon ? Do I get double the quality from the Apollon?

 

[GXAlan]

Nord seems half the price of the Apollon ? Do I get double the quality from the Apollon?

Not at all.

I would argue that you should get the lowest priced amplifier with good speaker protection. Relevant reading:

Post in thread 'Hypex amps and DC protection'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...pex-amps-and-dc-protection.45833/post-2007054

But I leave it to someone like @restorer-john to weigh in with real knowledge.

 

[Vacceo]

Thanks Alan, I understand and Agree with what you are saying and thanks to this Forum and people such as yourself I initially turned down the Class A/B Amp. Now my mind is set I am 100% sticking to the Hypex/Purifi Amps.

Are all Hypex/Purifi Amps made equal as they use the same components? Can say the Apollon be better quality build using the same Modules as the Nord?

This extra may or may not be relevant due to the location of the amplification, but with Purifi/Hypex, at the same power consumption, you´ll get less heat due to efficiency. This element may be relevant if your amps are in a tight spot and you need to vent them.