ASR recommendations should take price into account, and shouldn't only be based on the subjective test.

[richard12511]

Let me first say I'm fine with the Panther rating. I actually like the fact that it has almost nothing to do with the measurements. It gives us two different metrics(objective and subjective). However, I think the recommendation should be divorced from the panther rating.

Recommending that people purchase a $10,000 speaker that measures terribly(bad even for a $1,000 speaker) because you(as a single individual under sighted conditions) liked the sound, kinda craps on the work that Floyd Toole and Sean Olive did, imo. It's important to consider that you are just one person(no matter how many speakers you've heard) and Toole/Olive have shown conclusively that the vast majority of people prefer speakers with good measurements. I appreciate your honesty(panther rating) when your personal impressions deviate from the measurements, but I do think your purchase recommendations should heavily favor their research.

You recommend the $10,000 Wilson Tune Tot, despite telling another member here that you preferred the $3,800 Genelec 8050c. Maybe if one is a billionaire, the price difference between those two doesn't matter, and both can be recommended, but recommendations (imo) should be for the average reader.

I like that you state whether or not you enjoy the sound of a speaker(panther rating), regardless of price, but recommendations (imo)are different. Recommendations are advising purchasing decisions for readers, and for 99% of readers, price is a very important metric. You can keep your current panther rating that doesn't take price into account, but I really think your (purchase)recommendations really need to take price into account. I know it's tough, but something is better than nothing. A non rich reader of your Wilson TuneTot review who purchased that speaker based on your review would be super bummed to find that you said a speaker 1/3 the cost is even better somewhere in the pages of comments.

This truly is meant as constructive criticism. This is the best audio review site there is, which is why I care about it so much. I want the best for it.

 

[buz]

While I agree that price matters, this comes across as whiny to me. Anyone who buys a 10K speaker based on reading one review that has qualifiers to go with - skipping the following discussion where all of this is hashed out five times - frankly has only himself to blame.

 

[creamygarlicdip]

He often mentions price in his reviews. Like the cheaper speakers he will mention that for the price they're great like the edifier bookshelves. He does this in other reviews too.

 

[richard12511]

Anyone who buys a 10K speaker based on reading one review that has qualifiers to go with - skipping the following discussion where all of this is hashed out five times - frankly has only himself to blame.

The problem with that is, the ASR review is the only review that is a real review. Most reviews are just advertisements. Unless @hardisj or @napilopez reviews this speaker, any other review is all but guaranteed to sing the praises of this speaker(regardless of performance). I'm sure there are many reviews of this speaker out there, but other than ASR review, I'd bet that almost all are just an advertisement disguised as a review.

ASR is one of the only sites willing to publish negative feedback, which is the main reason I love this site. ASR and ErinsAudioCorner are the only major loudspeaker sites that give honest reviews.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm still somewhat conflicted over that Wilson review. But I've heard several other Wilsons over the years, and two things are a common with them. With care in set up they could produce highly satisfying music despite any short comings. And in person they just exude quality even if they are somewhat ugly to some. I find it unlikely anyone would see one in person without feeling it is a high quality construction.

Genelecs are indeed the perfect counterpoint. To me they are one of the worst designs ever. Not for quality or sound. For their always bland say nothing appearance. It is like blandness taken to an extreme to make them almost the most generic device with no appearance of value. I get the philosophy of a device aimed at pro use and this is the ultimate example of it. As for something in my home...........yuck!

So while both are extremes, I can see someone with money who are taken in by the oozing apparent quality of a Wilson over a Genelec. Since both can be catered to in ways to sound very good there is little difference in the end. The Genelec requires less effort to sound good. The Wilson may take plenty of extra effort not to sound bad, but once you made that effort it doesn't impact your long term use of it.

 

[sweetchaos]

If Amir recommends a $10k speaker, even if it one that has a preference rating of 2.6 (Wilson Tune Tot), then we all benefit from the objective measurements and his subjective opinion.
Amir's recommendations ignore the price, which I'm okay with, since that's been the case since the beginning.

I think the bigger question we need to answer is…what are the options for the person who's looking to spend $10k on speakers?
I started to answer this question by creating 2 threads:

Passive Speaker Recommendations for USA (by @sweetchaos)

I'm constantly asked which speakers to purchase...so, here you go! :D This guide is for PASSIVE speakers. For ACTIVE speakers go here. Click on the "Spoiler" buttons below to expand each section. Readme: Legend: Passive Bookshelf Speakers: Passive Tower/Floorstanding Speakers: RAN OUT...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Active Speaker Recommendations for USA (by @sweetchaos)

I'm constantly asked which speakers to purchase...so, here you go! :D This guide is for ACTIVE speakers. For PASSIVE speakers go here. Click on the "Spoiler" buttons below to expand each section. Readme: Legend: Active Speakers (aka Studio Monitors): Bookshelf speakers (when turned 90deg)...

www.audiosciencereview.com

However, it's not exactly what I envisioned it, so I'm already working on the next version.

With time and more speaker measurements, we'll see that there are many more speakers that are recommended for the same price point ($10k) that Wilson Tune Tot retails for. With more data, the Wilson speaker will simply be on the bottom of the recommended list (in terms of preference rating), with dozens more speakers that are objectively better than them. Then, if the user still chooses to purchase a Wilson speaker, then, we can say that it's the user's call at that point. But at least we presented the user with enough choices to make that call.

 

[richard12511]

I'm still somewhat conflicted over that Wilson review. But I've heard several other Wilsons over the years, and two things are a common with them. With care in set up they could produce highly satisfying music despite any short comings. And in person they just exude quality even if they are somewhat ugly to some. I find it unlikely anyone would see one in person without feeling it is a high quality construction.

Genelecs are indeed the perfect counterpoint. To me they are one of the worst designs ever. Not for quality or sound. For their always bland say nothing appearance. It is like blandness taken to an extreme to make them almost the most generic device with no appearance of value. I get the philosophy of a device aimed at pro use and this is the ultimate example of it. As for something in my home...........yuck!

So while both are extremes, I can see someone with money who are taken in by the oozing apparent quality of a Wilson over a Genelec. Since both can be catered to in ways to sound very good there is little difference in the end. The Genelec requires less effort to sound good. The Wilson may take plenty of extra effort not to sound bad, but once you made that effort it doesn't impact your long term use of it.

I get that, but i would presume that most people would rather buy a $3,800 speaker that sounds better than a $10,000 speaker. For most people, price is at least somewhat of a factor. Do you disagree? If not, you should agree that it should play some part in the review's consumer purchase recommendation.

 

[richard12511]

If Amir recommends a $10k speaker, even if it one that has a preference rating of 2.6 (Wilson Tune Tot), then we all benefit from the objective measurements and his subjective opinion.
Amir's recommendations ignore the price, which I'm okay with, since that's been the case since the beginning.

I think the bigger question we need to answer is…what are the options for the person who's looking to spend $10k on speakers?
I started to answer this question by creating 2 threads:

Passive Speaker Recommendations for USA (by @sweetchaos)

I'm constantly asked which speakers to purchase...so, here you go! :D This guide is for PASSIVE speakers. For ACTIVE speakers go here. Click on the "Spoiler" buttons below to expand each section. Readme: Legend: Passive Bookshelf Speakers: Passive Tower/Floorstanding Speakers: RAN OUT...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Active Speaker Recommendations for USA (by @sweetchaos)

I'm constantly asked which speakers to purchase...so, here you go! :D This guide is for ACTIVE speakers. For PASSIVE speakers go here. Click on the "Spoiler" buttons below to expand each section. Readme: Legend: Active Speakers (aka Studio Monitors): Bookshelf speakers (when turned 90deg)...

www.audiosciencereview.com

However, it's not exactly what I envisioned it, so I'm already working on the next version.

With time and more speaker measurements, we'll see that there are many more speakers that are recommended for the same price point ($10k) that Wilson Tune Tot retails for. With more data, the Wilson speaker will simply be on the bottom of the recommended list, with dozens more speakers that are objectively better than them. Then, if the user still chooses to purchase a Wilson speaker, then, we can say that it's the user's call at that point. But at least we presented the user with enough choices to make that call.

I think you kinda miss my point. My post is based on trying to improve ASR review purchase recommendations. Obviously you agree that price matters, otherwise you wouldn't bother creating those price lists that you do.

I think you are missing that I'm asking that the panther rating to be separated from the recommendation. I like that the panther rating doesn't include price, but I think the consumer purchase recommendation should include it.

 

[buz]

I get that, but i would presume that most people would rather buy a $3,800 speaker that sounds better than a $10,000 speaker. For most people, price is at least somewhat of a factor. Do you disagree? If not, you should agree that it should play some part in the review's recommendation.

Of course. Which is why sweetchaos' list is so important.

As for ASR being the only real review, yes, the plots are there for you to see. If you decide to buy the TuneTots after seeing those it's on you. No matter what amir says. Also he is clearly torn himself:

There is no question that there are some clear objective/engineering errors in the design of Wilson TuneTot. The port is tuned too high and the on-axis/directivity response is poor. What is strange though that the impact of these on the fidelity of the speaker is not at all this obvious. Either I am influenced by the showroom sound as much as the next guy or getting off-axis to be right in my rather reflective room overcomes issues in on-axis response. It is also possible that all the money that has gone to building such an extremely dense speaker and keeping distortion low is paying benefit here. One wonders how much better these would sound if they had had preserved all of this and at the same time didn't have the design errors.

If I were to just goy by the measurements, the Tunetot would not get good marks. But I have promised you all that I won't lie about what I hear no matter how much of a conflict this provides. To that end, I am going to recommend the Wilson TuneTot with equalization (cost not considered).

To me that says: unless you have money to burn, stay away. And even then, it's flawed.

 

[sweetchaos]

I like that the panther rating doesn't include price, but I think the consumer purchase recommendation should include it.

Can't we just look at the community poll, to see what people think of the speaker (and by extension purchase it or not)?
That, to me, is the answer to the overall recommendation.

Case in point:

Which tells me that 56% of the people wouldn't purchase this speaker.

 

[Soniclife]

While I agree that price matters, this comes across as whiny to me. Anyone who buys a 10K speaker based on reading one review that has qualifiers to go with - skipping the following discussion where all of this is hashed out five times - frankly has only himself to blame.

He has also given more than enough data for people to form their own contradictory opinions, so I don't see any value in trying to force those opinions on him. It's one man's opinion, I take those opinions as more like entertainment than science.

 

[richard12511]

Can't we just look at the community poll, to see what people think of the speaker (and by extension purchase it or not)?
That, to me, is the answer to the overall recommendation.

For sure, and that's a good solution to the overall problem(so glad Amir added that), and a I think a good number of readers will do just that, but I'm trying to offer improvements to the review itself. There may be readers that google "Wilson TuneTot" review, and just read the review itself. They may come away thinking this speaker is a great value at $10,000. Longtime readers that understand Amir's recommendations have nothing to do with price may be able to contextualize, but I fear that most won't. I fear that most will google the speaker they're looking for and see that Amir recommends it, and not read the 30 pages of comments where he eventually says the $3,800 speaker is even better.

Again, I'm only trying to help here. This is my favorite site(by far). and I want these reviews to be as useful as possible. I think that including price as a consideration for consumer purchase recommendations would improve the value of said reviews to the average consumer? Do you disagree? Keep in mind, I'm not talking the panther rating.

 

[buz]

Longtime readers that understand Amir's recommendations have nothing to do with price may be able to contextualize, but I fear that most won't. I fear that most will google the speaker they're looking for and see that Amir recommends it, and not read the 30 pages of comments where he eventually says the $3,800 speaker is even better.

It says right next to the recommendation in bold cost not considered.

 

[sweetchaos]

Right, but I have no issue with someone purchasing these Wilson speakers for $10k.
It's not my money, so I don't lose sleep over something that doesn't concern me.
Personally, I see a lot better options for the money, so I'm working on creating a system that helps people choose better speakers for their use case.

Just like I did with subwoofers, when I created the 'subwoofer comparison' spreadsheet.
If someone purchases a JL Audio subwoofer, I have no issues with that, other than I wouldn't purchase them myself, as I see much better options for the same money.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I get that, but i would presume that most people would rather buy a $3,800 speaker that sounds better than a $10,000 speaker. For most people, price is at least somewhat of a factor. Do you disagree? If not, you should agree that it should play some part in the review's consumer purchase recommendation.

I would agree most would rather buy a $3800 speaker that sounds better. But not all. Some would turn up their noses if that speaker for $3800 looks cheap or pedestrian. I also agree price plays some part in a reviewers recommendation. In this case, Amir has documented more than anyone the speakers short comings. If you are one of the group wealthy enough, and count that appearance of extreme quality as valuable he does indicate the speaker with some EQ can sound better than you might expect. Everyone else can very easily see, in no way is such an over-priced under-performing speaker for me. So I don't see that anyone is misled by his review and recommendation. There is no aspect of his review that attempts to tempt someone who otherwise is about to buy a better cheaper speaker into spending $10k for this failure instead.

 

[KSTR]

Sorry for being quite frank here but I feel that during the years, this site got bloated with uneducated, clueless arrogant back-seat driver type of comments, often filled with hate. That's the real problem of this site. Everyone seems to feel entitled to make exaggerated blanket statements like "this speaker measures terribly bad". It doesn't. "Total piece of crap". It isn't. Earn some credibilty first and prove you actually know something about what you're talking. Now you might think I'm an arrogant a**hole as well, and I'm fine with that.

While I'm not in harmony with Amir on all accounts he still does an great job here. IMHO, trying to keep the price out of the picture in his personal and subjective recommendations is the right way. This is not intended to be a "best buy" review site, isn't it?
You can make your own private decision if you find something priceworthy (in the literal sense) or not, you don't need anyone's recommendations for this.

 

[Sancus]

FWIW, I have a few problems with the recommendations. I generally agree with you. The other problem I have is that reviews are rarely if ever properly updated when later information comes to light. Quite often it's buried in the thread, or even just a small note in the review. And even when there is a correction, the final recommendation never changes, which I think is silly. Not to mention, the standards for recommendations and panthers have changed over time and will continue to change, but this is never made clear, and often products which were reviewed earlier are very unfairly disadvantaged against more recent reviews because of this.

That said, the counterargument here is that -- the recommendations are Amir's personal recommendations, and he's said before that he doesn't feel he can recommend a speaker unless he listened to it and actually liked it. So obviously that works the other way around too. And they're his reviews, so if that's how he wants to handle it, it's his choice.

In general, I think this site is not that useful unless you accept you need to look beyond the "scores" and the "recommendations" to reach the truth. Those two things help you narrow stuff down, but that's all they do.

Anyone buying things purely based on whether they got a "recommendation" or "score" above some number is doing it wrong. And you know, if people do that, they're still likely to get a decent product.

But I don't think you have any right to complain if you buy a $10K speaker purely based on Amir's recommendation without actually understanding anything beyond that, and end up disappointed. There IS a personal responsibility to do your own research or accept the consequences of not doing it.

 

[Sharpi31]

Price is a variable, not a constant. If Amir factored a $500 price into his recommendation, what happens when the device is discounted to $350 a year later? I can understand why Amir decided not to consider price.

 

[fluid]

Recommending that people purchase a $10,000 speaker that measures terribly(bad even for a $1,000 speaker) because you(as a single individual under sighted conditions) liked the sound, kinda craps on the work that Floyd Toole and Sean Olive did, imo. It's important to consider that you are just one person(no matter how many speakers you've heard) and Toole/Olive have shown conclusively that the vast majority of people prefer speakers with good measurements.

If you look carefully at the measurements the speaker is far from terrible, and the review does not crap on the work of Toole and Olive
The on axis is a bit wonky but from 2K up the listening window is pretty flat, most of the problems are dips which are not as audible and the two peaks look pretty easy to EQ as they affect all curves equally. The dip at the crossover on axis is compensated somewhat by a peak off axis and the overall directivity is far from horrible. Whilst this is far from great it is not as awful as I would have expected either.

It does not surprise me at all that Amir thinks it sounds OK, particularly with a bit of EQ.

The speaker is priced for those who will only buy something that costs that much so they can brag to their friends about it. No sensible person on a budget is checking out Wilson speakers no matter if they are "recommended" or not. I applaud Amir for his honesty when it would have been much easier to bag the speaker out than deal with the backlash he must have known was heading his way.

 

[sweetchaos]

Price is a variable, not a constant. If Amir factored a $500 price into his recommendation, what happens when the device is discounted to $350 a year later? I can understand why Amir decided not to consider price.

Yes, I've seen this with subwoofer prices. Covid and electronic shortages has jacked up the prices up to 50% on many subwoofers, so any of my previous "best subwoofer for $500 price point" recommendations that I made last year, are completely outdated now.