ASR Long-Term Plans

[pozz]

I've been wondering about long-term plans for ASR. Right now, it's the best resource out there for audio-related help and information. It seems like there are more people joining everyday who want to understand audio concepts and advice in buying decisions.

Take Discogs. I was using this site back when it was started by enthusiasts collecting dance music. Why was it necessary? Because no one had any idea of the whole. So many unknown but skilled artists and producers signed onto small labels with limited distributions which only served a particular scene or genre and then passed after a few years. Anyone interested would mostly rely on advice and word-of-mouth if looking for new sounds or exploring the depths of a certain era. I still rely heavily on Discogs and have contributed more than a few unique releases. Since the mass of data is user-generated and forum is not very active, you have moderators which examine user submissions for quality and approval, although many users register, submit a few releases and then disappear. Data quality is a massive issue, and the data submission manual is not well-written.

Eventually Discogs grew into its current corporate glory and created many other [catal]-ogs. Here you have Gearogs, which collects entries for all audio-related gear, like speakers. Again, data quality is a central problem and I haven't liked some of what has happened, but I'm grateful for the resource.

From where I'm sitting, and from the types of questions and topics of interest on ASR, it's clear that we want some sense of the whole, advice about how to navigate it, and are at a similar turning point.

So where do we go from here?

In its current form, despite its popularity, ASR is a fragile online resource. @amirm and @Thomas savage are the mainstays. In the face of that there are the usual risks of overwork, burnout, sickness and so on. There is also a heavy demand for the kinds of reviews and exchanges that take place here, and a pool of uniquely-available collective knowledge.

A few more reviewers and a formal back-end and staff would help with longevity, reach and upkeep. I'm sure the site's functions could be improved as well, like the data-gathering, presentation and comparison, search functions, navigation and so on.

Another driver is the push to confront the industry's dishonesty and predation, and put into the public eye those companies and manufacturers that deserve recognition for their engineering.

Discogs gathers a lot of its revenue from commissions (last time I checked, set at 8%) from second-hand sales of physical media. I don't know if they are planning to do the same thing with gear, but that might be the case. Certainly would generate a lot of revenue if it got going, given the ease of having a good database already. Gearslutz has their classified sections, which require subscriptions. Then there's Head-Fi, which appears sponsor-driven. There are also the various audio marts and attached forums. I'll fully admit that I don't know the extent and details of their business models. But each of those companies function as gathering points. They host shows, bring in lectures, perhaps organize classes (I think Gearslutz does this for mastering, mixing and such), and generally maintain a consistent operation, as well as keep their forums active.

I hope this thread will start a serious discussion going. What does everyone think?

 

[HemiRick]

This probably should have started as a PM to Amir....

 

[Lorenzo74]

As I wrote in another thread, this is just the beginning.
The mission here is the opposite of the great Justin Gordon Holt, “the founder of the high-end audio movement, which promoted the philosophy of judging sound quality by subjective tests“. J.G.Holt founded Stereophile in 1962 and Amirm Founded (with Fun) Audiosciencereview with the philosophy that sound quality can be measured.

time has changed; almost 60 years passed since then. technology has changed, media, communications but above all people. In this new world It’s a matter of time and any hole/demand automatically is filled in.

the hole here is the demand of answers exactly as it was in the past, driven by the same passion and love for music but definitely different in the original mission, “audio is science and music is art” (B. Putzeys).

what we should be happy is that we are here, at the beginning of a story, because ASR will evolve into something we don know yet.
to me we miss a YouTube channel, let’s image the nice videos of testing speakers and amplifiers...
at the end, as it happened with internet, each of us will be part of the story. The value here is in Amirm‘s reviews and in the contribution of his reviewers, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?members/&key=most_likes that are indeed each of us.

The King is dead, long live the King!

my Best
L.

 

[pozz]

This probably should have started as a PM to Amir....

It started just that way.

 

[RayDunzl]

 

[Ron Texas]

We are in the middle of the biggest shit storm since 1968. Just being here next year is a long term plan.

 

[pozz]

We are in the middle of the biggest shit storm since 1968. Just being here next year is a long term plan.

All the more reason to think ahead. Inertia (status quo) is a powerful thing.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I think this is a good topic. And a good time to raise it.

For instance, we now have enough members and threads you can't any longer keep up with all them or even most of them. I see repeated questions, and sometimes the discussion goes down very differently from the first time when it really shouldn't. I don't want this to become one of those places where repeated thread topics get a response of "Search is your friend this is an old topic". Obviously new people don't know it is an old topic.

It is a damned sticky wicket, but the other recurrent issue is, how good is good enough? We've all these reviews with detailed results and the SINAD rankings, and Speaker Preference rankings, but lots of people come and want to know how to use them. How good is good enough? If something has everything -115 db down then it is good enough. But often items that may only get the -90 db ranking may be effectively just as good. And we have a big wide gray area. It will never be delineated with a sharp cutoff, but it would be nice if you could help people make use of the test results without it being part of the career or a big time nearly full time hobby to know such things. Then again, with DACs enough of them are -110 or better to get something else just seems like a bad idea even if they are fine. And this is at very affordable pricing. At the other extreme you can't get "good enough" AV gear at any price (I'm overstating this a bit).

SPEAKER PREFERENCE RATINGS:
Most of the above in my post could be ignored and lived with easily enough. Speaker testing and preference ratings are the big coup for ASR since Amir so wisely went ahead and purchased the Klippel gear. It has become very clear the formula from Harman is either not the full story on how they evaluate their speakers or is in need of lots of work, and better statistical underpinnings.

No two speakers sound the same. Harman's guidelines clearly make for some very good speakers from objective and subjective viewpoints on sound quality. The parsing of those that are rather good, very good and extremely good is lacking severely. I don't know what to do about this, but something needs to be done. I hope there are smart people out there. It doesn't take too many smarts to ask the questions. Answers are another thing.

I also agree in time Thomas and Amir are going to be worn down. I'd think it a big plus to relieve Amir of all testing other than speaker testing. Unless Amir just really loves the other testing. The AP can be operated by plenty of other people (though not just anyone). If someone is willing to take that on that would relieve Amir of that.

I don't know what to do about Thomas. He seems singularly good at being just the person for what he does here at ASR for us (and I fear it wears on him anyway). We can't just shift that job to any competent person like you could ship them an AP for testing stuff.

Bottom line to me, is ASR can cover many areas of audio now. I think its crowning achievement should be the speaker tests. It should become the go to place to learn about quality speakers. They are the only thing left that actually make a difference in how good the music is we hear. I'd like to see Amir cover more of the pricier ambitious speakers. In time it will happen, and is happening faster than I expected it to. So Amir don't look at this as complaining, you've done great and done it rapidly.

 

[617]

We must protect Amir at all costs.

 

[ernestcarl]

I’ve not been back here since New Year’s vacation. I could hardly believe that the site was already producing officially measured speaker reviews and a scoring system to boot.

My main suggestion, I suppose, is that people should take a break from time to time — lest they burn-out. The progress here may feel annoyingly slow to some who go to the site daily, but it feels like a racetrack to many others (esp. visitors). I can hardly keep up myself.

Maybe a youtube channel, with occasional (even just once a month) “video reviews breakdown” could bring in more people here who would otherwise go visit more subjective channels like the Audiophiliac and Head-Fi. It wouldn’t necessarily need to be Amir in front of the screen, though. But a likeable, charming “personality” in front of the video camera wouldn’t hurt. LOL

 

[SimpleTheater]

I know @amirm has resisted advertising on the site, but I would think he could generate some revenue by allowing ads for non-donors. This way they can contribute to this amazing site.

 

[Thomas savage]

As I see it ASR is a place for Amirm to publish his reviews, the mission is to have as many eyes on as possible. How they are presented and the ease of navigation is important, I think it's quite good but any ideas on how to collate and present in a better way would be welcomed I'm sure .

The forum part , well that's something else imo it's a totally different beast and those who contribute to the discussions do so for various reasons but certainly not restricted to information gathering . Hence repeated topics exist along with a bunch of other things that can support and improve the main objective but often don't .

So you have ASR as a community hub as the second element, I'd not assume that people want the same things from the two elements of ASR. The vast majority of these ' eyes ' we attract have no interest in actively participating, maybe they read the discussions maybe they just consume the review .

Information and entertainment , the current balance between the two is good imo the main issue with ASR is no company is a company if it relies on one individual and that rule apply's here to imo . There's another thread where I bang on about that so I won't repeat myself.

On the forum side whatever is done here the more popular it gets the less like it used to be it will become , I do my best to manage that transition so it's the least painful.

All in all we need more resource driven content to take the burden off Amirm , this brings its own challenges and potential compromises but is necessary for longevity. That content needs to be presented in the best way for user interaction/accessibility and most importantly be trusted.

As I see it nothing else matters , the other element , the forum and community will sustain itself to a degree. No one individual is relied upon in that so there's nothing to worry about . Yes I do what I do and probably that's more than it seems but I'm not vital to the mission of ASR , I'm easily replaced. ASR might be different without me , maybe better who knows but it won't be anything without Amirm and that needs to change and evolve . Unfortunately there's expensive equipment that Amirm uses for the information gathering , that's prohibitive to this goal . If he lived in say new York you could see a physical community visiting and sharing the equipment and something could be achieved that way . As it is I'm lost for meaningful suggestions as how we crack longevity.

My 2 cents / pence

 

[North_Sky]

I like to see an expansion towards measuring the sounds of nature; the winds, the waves, the rain, the earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, forest fires, the birds singing, the sounds of rivers, the crickets @ night, the frogs, the hornets flipping their wings, the roars of bears, the runs of the rapids, ...everything that moves auditory with nature ... the flying stars.

 

[DownUnderGazza]

ASR is providing an invaluable resource. The loudspeaker reviews have been a real eye opener, even tho I voted against going down that path. My mistake, I’m so glad I was wrong.

Personally I’m not that keen on a video dimension to ASR, however having been wrong before, I’d like to make a suggestion.

We now have copious amounts of fantastic data. The challenge now is to interpret it and to integrate it. Especially for the new arrivals.

So, what does all this raw data mean for:

• Headphone listening setups
• Desktop music studio (DAW) setups
• Bedroom loudspeaker setups
• Living room loudspeaker setups
• Home Theatre setups
• Whole home music distribution setups

And by setups, I mean lists of recommended products, and if necessary how to configure them, that would produce fantastic results for Surprisingly modest outlay.

 

[Cahudson42]

ASR have phenomenal and thorough speaker tests. ASR is also continually probing for 'competent' electronics - most recent success with Denon AVR. Thirdly, ASR is starting to evaluate, measure, and show the benefits of, and how to utilize DSP, both room correction and speaker optimization. The future is all three, where the 'production of enjoyable sound' is viewed as a unified system solution of all three taken together.

We are certainly not there yet. But ASR, by continuing to probe 'the three legs' is getting us there. Transducers', electronics, processing - we need to continue all three in parallel.

 

[spacevector]

It wouldn’t necessarily need to be Amir in front of the screen, though. But a likeable, charming “personality” in front of the video camera wouldn’t hurt. LOL

Thomas Savage be like:

 

[North_Sky]

Video measurements, that's a good idea.

 

[North_Sky]

View attachment 68314

Building new flying highways, designing new electric flying cars, electric cruise ships, pursuing nuclear fusion.

 

[617]

Is it crazy to suggest restriction of growth? I have no idea how such a thing would be possible, but the entire reason I frequent ASR is the high ratio of experts to casuals/idiots/consumers. People here for the most part know and like to learn. These are rare qualities. I know very little about audio compared to many here, but I do read critically and attentively.

I haven't yet noticed a diminished level of discourse yet but it seems like it will be inevitable as ASR becomes a resource for more consumers. Video content, for example, would bring YouTubers here, rather than people with the patience to read an informative article of interpret nuanced data.

To my knowledge, Amir's only stated goal for ASR is to influence industry. What is the best way to do that? Do we really expect laypeople to really understand the subtleties of a CEA 2034 chart and what it means and doesn't mean?

 

[Thomas savage]

I think this is a good topic. And a good time to raise it.

For instance, we now have enough members and threads you can't any longer keep up with all them or even most of them. I see repeated questions, and sometimes the discussion goes down very differently from the first time when it really shouldn't. I don't want this to become one of those places where repeated thread topics get a response of "Search is your friend this is an old topic". Obviously new people don't know it is an old topic.

It is a damned sticky wicket, but the other recurrent issue is, how good is good enough? We've all these reviews with detailed results and the SINAD rankings, and Speaker Preference rankings, but lots of people come and want to know how to use them. How good is good enough? If something has everything -115 db down then it is good enough. But often items that may only get the -90 db ranking may be effectively just as good. And we have a big wide gray area. It will never be delineated with a sharp cutoff, but it would be nice if you could help people make use of the test results without it being part of the career or a big time nearly full time hobby to know such things. Then again, with DACs enough of them are -110 or better to get something else just seems like a bad idea even if they are fine. And this is at very affordable pricing. At the other extreme you can't get "good enough" AV gear at any price (I'm overstating this a bit).

SPEAKER PREFERENCE RATINGS:
Most of the above in my post could be ignored and lived with easily enough. Speaker testing and preference ratings are the big coup for ASR since Amir so wisely went ahead and purchased the Klippel gear. It has become very clear the formula from Harman is either not the full story on how they evaluate their speakers or is in need of lots of work, and better statistical underpinnings.

No two speakers sound the same. Harman's guidelines clearly make for some very good speakers from objective and subjective viewpoints on sound quality. The parsing of those that are rather good, very good and extremely good is lacking severely. I don't know what to do about this, but something needs to be done. I hope there are smart people out there. It doesn't take too many smarts to ask the questions. Answers are another thing.

I also agree in time Thomas and Amir are going to be worn down. I'd think it a big plus to relieve Amir of all testing other than speaker testing. Unless Amir just really loves the other testing. The AP can be operated by plenty of other people (though not just anyone). If someone is willing to take that on that would relieve Amir of that.

I don't know what to do about Thomas. He seems singularly good at being just the person for what he does here at ASR for us (and I fear it wears on him anyway). We can't just shift that job to any competent person like you could ship them an AP for testing stuff.

Bottom line to me, is ASR can cover many areas of audio now. I think its crowning achievement should be the speaker tests. It should become the go to place to learn about quality speakers. They are the only thing left that actually make a difference in how good the music is we hear. I'd like to see Amir cover more of the pricier ambitious speakers. In time it will happen, and is happening faster than I expected it to. So Amir don't look at this as complaining, you've done great and done it rapidly.

Good idea , Amirm focusing on just speaker reviews and Farm out the rest . You have a finite resource you have to make sure you use it wisely.

still we need to bring in as many folks as possible and many these days are using phones and cans so we need to be measuring and providing trusted data on those . If those people come here and then are turn into speakers all the better .

it would be nice for us to help contribute to a uptake in home hifi rather than just service the existing niche.