ASR Acourate users

[Keith_W]

Hello @Keith_W and everyone,

I have used Acourate quite a few times with Roon, but yesterday I went to edit the target curve in an existing project, run again macros 0-5 and the resulting convolution filter when imported to Roon produced a highly distorted loud sound that was clipping with a -10dB headroom. I have attached the relevant files.

Unfortunately, I can not open the "Acourate4Roon" zipped folder. This is what you need to do to find out what is going on: open Cor1 to CorN in Acourate and examine them:

The highest point of each XO should not exceed 0dB. If it exceeds 0dB, you could try to manually fix it by using FD-Functions - Magnitude Normalization, select all the curves you wish to normalize, and choose "Groupwise". Save all the curves.

(EDIT): I should point out that you need to compare left and right filters before you do this. You might note that in my set of XO's, the filters do not reach 0dB. This is because these are all left sided filters. There is ONE filter on the right that reaches 0dB, and the rest of the filters are automatically normalized by Acourate to that filter. If you simply normalized one channel without considering the other, you may create a channel imbalance.

Otherwise, you made a wrong setting in one of the room Macros, most likely Macro 4 (make sure Max Correction Gain is set at 0dB).

If your filters do not exceed 0dB, then the problem might be the way you loaded the filters into Roon.

PS Playback chain is Wiim Pro (Tos link @ 24-bit 192Khz) ---> miniDSP Flex --> power amp

Strange playback chain. You send 2ch output from Roon into the Wiim, then you apply DSP again with the MiniDSP?

 

[CK.]

Unfortunately, I can not open the "Acourate4Roon" zipped folder. This is what you need to do to find out what is going on: open Cor1 to CorN in Acourate and examine them:

View attachment 479059

The highest point of each XO should not exceed 0dB. If it exceeds 0dB, you could try to manually fix it by using FD-Functions - Magnitude Normalization, select all the curves you wish to normalize, and choose "Groupwise". Save all the curves.

(EDIT): I should point out that you need to compare left and right filters before you do this. You might note that in my set of XO's, the filters do not reach 0dB. This is because these are all left sided filters. There is ONE filter on the right that reaches 0dB, and the rest of the filters are automatically normalized by Acourate to that filter. If you simply normalized one channel without considering the other, you may create a channel imbalance.

Otherwise, you made a wrong setting in one of the room Macros, most likely Macro 4 (make sure Max Correction Gain is set at 0dB).

If your filters do not exceed 0dB, then the problem might be the way you loaded the filters into Roon.



Strange playback chain. You send 2ch output from Roon into the Wiim, then you apply DSP again with the MiniDSP?

Hey,

I have attached the .wav and .cfg files and a screenshot of the cor1R an cor1L.

Unfortunately, I can not open the "Acourate4Roon" zipped folder. This is what you need to do to find out what is going on: open Cor1 to CorN in Acourate and examine them:

View attachment 479059

The highest point of each XO should not exceed 0dB. If it exceeds 0dB, you could try to manually fix it by using FD-Functions - Magnitude Normalization, select all the curves you wish to normalize, and choose "Groupwise". Save all the curves.

(EDIT): I should point out that you need to compare left and right filters before you do this. You might note that in my set of XO's, the filters do not reach 0dB. This is because these are all left sided filters. There is ONE filter on the right that reaches 0dB, and the rest of the filters are automatically normalized by Acourate to that filter. If you simply normalized one channel without considering the other, you may create a channel imbalance.

Otherwise, you made a wrong setting in one of the room Macros, most likely Macro 4 (make sure Max Correction Gain is set at 0dB).

If your filters do not exceed 0dB, then the problem might be the way you loaded the filters into Roon.



Strange playback chain. You send 2ch output from Roon into the Wiim, then you apply DSP again with the MiniDSP?

Hello @Keith_W , @OCA and everyone,

After discussing this also with Dr. Uli (appreciate the prompt response), my filters seemed fine as I suspected since I loaded them also in EqualizerAPO with no issues in playback.

Dr.Uli suggested to create Filters for upto 192Khz (I previously had the default of 48Khz) - On the Wiim I do have the feature for "Fixed" sample rate of 192Khz (to "avoid pops") and today after rebooting the Wiim and using the new filter it was all good.

OCA was right to suspect something to do with sampling rate I guess. Thanks again all for your valuable input!


@Keith_W Regarding your comment about the strange playback chain, I use the miniDSP flex to handle the XO for my active subwoofer and take advantage f its low noise DAC and this is all the DSP it is doing before connecting to my 2-channel amplifier via XLR 4-Vrms. Would you suggest something different?

cheers!

 

[Keith_W]

I have attached the .wav and .cfg files and a screenshot of the cor1R an cor1L.

You have only attached the screenshot. It looks like a full range correction, and it does not exceed 0dB. So it's fine. In the future, please do not truncate the XY labels because it makes it difficult to interpret the graph. Also, we normally adjust the vertical scale to show a 50dB window. In your case I would choose +10dB to -40dB.

@Keith_W Regarding your comment about the strange playback chain, I use the miniDSP flex to handle the XO for my active subwoofer and take advantage f its low noise DAC and this is all the DSP it is doing before connecting to my 2-channel amplifier via XLR 4-Vrms. Would you suggest something different?

Yeah, most people would not have 3 DSP devices in series in the signal chain. What you are essentially doing is a FIR overlay for your whole system. If you have separate control of your main speakers and subs with a linear-phase FIR, you open the door to other types of correction. For example, you could run your mains full range (i.e. not high passed) - effectively giving you "more subwoofers", which theoretically should smoothen out the bass even better. You could adjust the phase of individual bands which overlap to smoothen out the bass even more. BUT ... these are all advanced topics, and requires a deeper understanding of acoustics and DSP, and the audible difference is probably tiny. You do it if you want to have some fun exploring what Acourate can do.

Most people do this:

Roon --> 4ch interface --> sub, power amp

If you need your Wiim in the signal chain, do this:

Wiim --> 4ch interface --> Acourate Convolver (or Hang Loose Convolver) --> 4ch interface --> sub, power amp

As long as you have properly time aligned your sub to your mains with your MiniDSP, your correction as you have designed it, will work. You know how to time align your sub with a MiniDSP, right?

I have a strong policy of telling people not to break something that already works for them. If it works for you, great! Don't do anything. But if you want something better, or if there is something you want to fix, then we can talk about it.

 

[CK.]

You have only attached the screenshot. It looks like a full range correction, and it does not exceed 0dB. So it's fine. In the future, please do not truncate the XY labels because it makes it difficult to interpret the graph. Also, we normally adjust the vertical scale to show a 50dB window. In your case I would choose +10dB to -40dB.

Point taken will have it mind thank you.

Yeah, most people would not have 3 DSP devices in series in the signal chain. What you are essentially doing is a FIR overlay for your whole system. If you have separate control of your main speakers and subs with a linear-phase FIR, you open the door to other types of correction. For example, you could run your mains full range (i.e. not high passed) - effectively giving you "more subwoofers", which theoretically should smoothen out the bass even better. You could adjust the phase of individual bands which overlap to smoothen out the bass even more. BUT ... these are all advanced topics, and requires a deeper understanding of acoustics and DSP, and the audible difference is probably tiny. You do it if you want to have some fun exploring what Acourate can do.

Most people do this:

Roon --> 4ch interface --> sub, power amp

If you need your Wiim in the signal chain, do this:

Wiim --> 4ch interface --> Acourate Convolver (or Hang Loose Convolver) --> 4ch interface --> sub, power amp

As long as you have properly time aligned your sub to your mains with your MiniDSP, your correction as you have designed it, will work. You know how to time align your sub with a MiniDSP, right?

I have a strong policy of telling people not to break something that already works for them. If it works for you, great! Don't do anything. But if you want something better, or if there is something you want to fix, then we can talk about it.

Thanks for your valuable feedback!

I would love to have some fun with acourate sure and I am willing to explore advanced topics. However, with my current setup which includes:

1. Wiim Pro (as a Roon endpoint)
2. miniDSP Flex (DAC + DSP)
3. 2-channel amplifier
4. Active subwoofer

In order to get the flexibility you suggest I would have to get another hardware DSP device (PC or otherwise) to run the convolution engine?
Is it not possible to use Roon's Convolution Engine on the Wiim to output 3 channels (subwoofer,left,right) via Toslink to the Flex in order to use acourate's XO?

I am not a big fan of running bookshelf speakers Full Range due to distortion and low impedance but I would like to explore Acourate's digital XO for the sub.

Currently I have phase-aligned my sub using REW's Alignment Tool but have not time-aligned the sub to the mains.

cheers!

 

[Keith_W]

In order to get the flexibility you suggest I would have to get another hardware DSP device (PC or otherwise) to run the convolution engine?\\\

You need some kind of computing device that can run convolution software - PC, Linux, or Mac. And "Linux" includes Raspberry Pi. 3 channel convolution is a cinch, it's not as if you are convolving dozens of channels like a certain crazy friend of mine. Even a very old PC can do it. Wipe its HDD and install Linux.

I presume you have read my Acourate guide and you've seen the "advanced" stuff? Is that what you want to try?

Is it not possible to use Roon's Convolution Engine on the Wiim to output 3 channels (subwoofer,left,right) via Toslink to the Flex in order to use acourate's XO?

You are asking me a question that I can not answer with confidence, since I don't own a Wiim nor do I use Roon. My understanding is that the room is a Roon endpoint, meaning that it does not do any convolution. I seriously doubt if the Wiim has enough CPU power / memory to run multichannel FIR filters anyway. I have never heard of anybody doing this.

I can also tell you that you can not use a MiniDSP as a multichannel DAC, since the individual outputs are not accessible through MiniDSP's ASIO driver. I know this one for a fact because I tried it on a MiniDSP I borrowed.

 

[CK.]

You need some kind of computing device that can run convolution software - PC, Linux, or Mac. And "Linux" includes Raspberry Pi. 3 channel convolution is a cinch, it's not as if you are convolving dozens of channels like a certain crazy friend of mine. Even a very old PC can do it. Wipe its HDD and install Linux.

I presume you have read my Acourate guide and you've seen the "advanced" stuff? Is that what you want to try?

Yes correct

You are asking me a question that I can not answer with confidence, since I don't own a Wiim nor do I use Roon. My understanding is that the room is a Roon endpoint, meaning that it does not do any convolution. I seriously doubt if the Wiim has enough CPU power / memory to run multichannel FIR filters anyway. I have never heard of anybody doing this.

No I mean the convolution runs on a PC where the Roon convolution engine runs and the Wiim is just a Wireless Roon streaming endpoint, does not do any processing.

I can also tell you that you can not use a MiniDSP as a multichannel DAC, since the individual outputs are not accessible through MiniDSP's ASIO driver. I know this one for a fact because I tried it on a MiniDSP I borrowed.

Sorry just to clarify, for measuring I will be using a focusrite multichannel interface but for playback I will be using the miniDSP flex. Is that not possible?

 

[Keith_W]

No I mean the convolution runs on a PC where the Roon convolution engine runs and the Wiim is just a Wireless Roon streaming endpoint, does not do any processing.

Can't answer your question, sorry. You have to ask someone who knows Roon and Wiim, and that's not me. Or you could try it yourself and see if it works.

Sorry just to clarify, for measuring I will be using a focusrite multichannel interface but for playback I will be using the miniDSP flex. Is that not possible?

If you are asking if you can use the MiniDSP Flex as a "dumb multichannel DAC", then no it is not possible. Prove it to yourself - plug your MiniDSP to your PC. Use REW. Can REW see output channels 1-4? No it can't. It only sees output channels 1 and 2, which are the MiniDSP inputs. This is the same whether it is ASIO or Java.

 

[CK.]

Can't answer your question, sorry. You have to ask someone who knows Roon and Wiim, and that's not me. Or you could try it yourself and see if it works.

Sure no worries.

If you are asking if you can use the MiniDSP Flex as a "dumb multichannel DAC", then no it is not possible. Prove it to yourself - plug your MiniDSP to your PC. Use REW. Can REW see output channels 1-4? No it can't. It only sees output channels 1 and 2, which are the MiniDSP inputs. This is the same whether it is ASIO or Java.

Hm that's unfortunate. Last question before I do some more reading on these stuff, in acourate when using a 2-channel XO for subwoofer integration, the logsweep expects 4 output channels but in reality I will be using 3 outputs on my focusrite interface: L+R mixed together for subwoofer, L, R.
I am a bit confused by that, how would that work?

 

[Keith_W]

Hm that's unfortunate. Last question before I do some more reading on these stuff, in acourate when using a 2-channel XO for subwoofer integration, the logsweep expects 4 output channels but in reality I will be using 3 outputs on my focusrite interface: L+R mixed together for subwoofer, L, R.
I am a bit confused by that, how would that work?

I wonder if Uli is following this thread (I know he reads ASR in secret because he sometimes emails me to tell me that i'm wrong!). It might be better to ask this question in the Acourate forum because you are guaranteed to get a response from him there.

Here, I have to also admit that I do not know the answer, although I can guess what the correct procedure should be. I have never used Acourate to tune a 2.1 setup. This is how I would do it:

1. Generate a XO to high pass the mains + low pass the subs. Optionally you could decide not to give the mains a HPF and use the subs to augment the mains. I can tell you how to do this if you like. You will end up with XO1L/R (subs) and XO2L/R (mains).
2. In your Focusrite mixer, remap input channel 2 so that it goes to output channel 1. This sends both L/R sub outputs to the sub.
3. Continue with your room Macros as normal.

 

[CK.]

I wonder if Uli is following this thread (I know he reads ASR in secret because he sometimes emails me to tell me that i'm wrong!). It might be better to ask this question in the Acourate forum because you are guaranteed to get a response from him there.

Here, I have to also admit that I do not know the answer, although I can guess what the correct procedure should be. I have never used Acourate to tune a 2.1 setup. This is how I would do it:

1. Generate a XO to high pass the mains + low pass the subs. Optionally you could decide not to give the mains a HPF and use the subs to augment the mains. I can tell you how to do this if you like. You will end up with XO1L/R (subs) and XO2L/R (mains).
2. In your Focusrite mixer, remap input channel 2 so that it goes to output channel 1. This sends both L/R sub outputs to the sub.
3. Continue with your room Macros as normal.

Ok thank you I have asked this question in acourate forum and will be experimenting a bit myself.

Cheers

 

[CK.]

Hello @Keith_W and everyone,
Apologies for bothering you again, but is there a guide or post that you know of, that describes how to use Acourate macros for a multi-position averaged measurements instead of the single position measurement?

Thank you

 

[Keith_W]

Hello @Keith_W and everyone,
Apologies for bothering you again, but is there a guide or post that you know of, that describes how to use Acourate macros for a multi-position averaged measurements instead of the single position measurement?

Thank you

See this document, go to Section 9.1 on Page 42 for instructions on how to do that.

 

[CK.]

See this document, go to Section 9.1 on Page 42 for instructions on how to do that.

Fantastic, cheers!