ASIO, WASAPI, Direct Sound... is there any difference in sound quality?

[Vincent Kars]

Apologies if I misunderstand and ask for clarification.

Indeed you do misunderstand it completely.
Windows Audio simply sees all audio devices.

If your media player is designed so, you can choose ASIO or WASAPI/Exclusive. This gives the media player exclusive lock on the audio device hence it can apply automatic sample rate conversion.
You still see it in the Win audio panel but if this media player is playing, no other apps can access the device.
Something you can simply check yourself.

Probably because I play through USB

Probably because you run a sighted test.

 

[Sal1950]

but to my ears AISO sounds a tad smoother and less "digital" to me.

Please detail what you believe is a "digital" sound?

 

[MIOM]

Probably because you run a sighted test.

1) I don't know what "a sighted test" is, I just know my DAC is plugged into a USB port and playback is done through the ASIO driver as shown in the images provided.
2) My reply was to DJuan2022, so I await their reply.

Please detail what you believe is a "digital" sound?

What I mean (meant) in this case is since my DAC supports multiple inputs - USB, analog, and digital/optical connections, If I choose OPT (optical) input instead of USB, the DAC will use the optical cable connected from my DAC to the PC's soundcard, which in turn uses the Realtek Digital drivers as shown below...

Yes, I understand the USB is also audio digital, so yeah, I should have clarified "digital sound".

Anyway, I need to say this... I'm new here, not new to forums. I'm registered at Steve Hoffman forums, HiFi Vision forms, Windows seven, eight, ten, and eleven forums. I may not be an "expert" in audio, but I'm no rookie either, and do have some basic understanding of tech.

Thanks.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Windows does not support ASIO in a native way, that's why you need 3rd party ASIO drivers to gain access to the transmission protocol.

In fact, ASIO bypasses the windows audio stack and it's processing altogether, getting rid of the CAudioLimiter and other stuff in the process.
Even the windows volume control will no longer work for the ASIO signal in question. Yes, you still see the device, no, you cannot influence the ASIO stream in any way.

Depending on the driver, windows can send another stream (WDM) to the device though. I can send a bit perfect ASIO stream from foobar to my RME and still hear e.g.: a youtube video from the browser or sounds from a video game at the same time.
ASIO does not have to be exclusive and block everything. This depends on the driver/device though.

TLR: you can see the application that actually uses ASIO in the volume mixer but if you use the slider, it won't do anything. I can set my playing foobar to 0% and the signal level at my RME is still the same as if it was set to 100% volume.
The whole point of ASIO is to BYPASS windows' own processing and thus achieve better latencies and better signal integrity (though that is not an audible concern in this day and age).

All that said, I've tried both ASIO and WASPI, but to my ears AISO sounds a tad smoother and less "digital" to me. Probably because I play through USB.

There is no discernable difference between WASAPI exclusive and ASIO. Any differences you perceive are in your head.
Either that or the drivers are faulty.

 

[Jimbob54]

2) My reply was to DJuan2022, so I await their reply.

Not been active since January so you may wait a while

 

[MIOM]

There is no discernable difference between WASAPI exclusive and ASIO. Any differences you perceive are in your head.

Well then in my head I still prefer AISO over WASPI. Thanks.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

1) I don't know what "a sighted test" is

In case you are still interested:

A "sighted" test refers to a test where you are doing the testing/switching and are aware of what plays when while trying to listen for differences. Here, all kinds of biases can creep up on you right up to the rather ridiculous notion of the device whose looks you like better ending up sounding nicer as well.

A "blind" test means, you still do the switching but you no longer know what is played when. Think of a black box with a button that arbitrarily switches between ASIO and WSAPI but you do not know which is is playing at any given time. An example would be Foobar's ABX plugin when you want to hear differences between two files.

A "doube blind" test means that you sit there and listen. A second person is doing all the switching and you do not get to see any components at all. In fact, you don't even know what is being tested: cables, amps, speakers, digital protocols. These tests are the most resilient ones but, obviously, also the most difficult to conduct properly.

Well then in my head I still prefer AISO over WASPI. Thanks.

As do I, .... because I find WASAPI exclusive such a headache in daily use. :'D

 

[krabapple]

All that said, I've tried both ASIO and WASPI, but to my ears AISO sounds a tad smoother and less "digital" to me. Probably because I play through USB.

Your 'ears' are wrong. Probably because you aren't comparing sources blind (and level-matched, though this shouldn't be necessary with ASIO vs WASAPI).

None of the forums you've gleaned your existing expertise from, will tell you that. Certainly not Hoffman's, which literally forbids discussion of scientific controls in audio evaluation.

Welcome to Audio SCIENCE Review.

 

[MIOM]

@Aerith Gainsborough,

Thanks. Heard of blind tests and double-blind tests, just haven't heard "sighted tests" but I get the concept. That said, and to be honest, I've never really been into the science of audio where listening to music is concerned. Yes, my mind works and thinks in scientific ways, and I'm very analytical; I also appreciate science and the technology.

However, when it comes to music, I'm more of the enjoy what you have and hear, rather than diving into the science of it - If my ears says it sounds good, that's good enough for me. Yes, I do, and have done, my research, but in the end it's more about my ears than science. As a photographer, I take the same approach when buying gear, I don't chase the latest and greatest tech based on plots and charts and science, it's all about does it work and do what I expect it to do. That's me.

Anyway, as one who is interested in all things is why I registered. That said, my first post was a question of clarity for a statement that didn't seem right.

Peace

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

However, when it comes to music, I'm more of the enjoy what you have and hear, rather than diving into the science of it - If my ears says it sounds good, that's good enough for me. Yes, I do, and have done, my research, but in the end it's more about my ears than science. As a photographer, I take the same approach when buying gear, I don't chase the latest and greatest tech based on plots and charts and science, it's all about does it work and do what I expect it to do.

Under normal circumstances, that would also work for audio.
Unfortunately, human hearing is terrible and sneaky salesmen love to take advantage of that and sell you ... well... a bag of nothing for a ton of gold.

Imho, apart from the science aspect being interesting in general, making informed buying decisions backed by science, can save you a lot of resources and time, when buying gear and hunting for "upgrades. Because in this day and age, one does not need to spend big cash on audio to get a satisfying experience anymore. Both can be put into what really matters in the end: the music we play and enjoy with our systems. After all, the tech (and to a degree the science behind it) are just a means to an end.

 

[bennetng]

I wondered why everyone misinterpreted DJuan2022 post.

ASIO, WASAPI, Direct Sound... is there any difference in sound quality?

I think it's time to update your foobar2000. It's very outdated. Maybe it will fix the issue. I also don't have these clicks, using wasapi event output with D10s. Never had them with E10k too. Clicks are still there but I can activate the fade option on all output modi to remove them now...

www.audiosciencereview.com

As DJuan2022's screenshot suggested, the whole thing is about the usability of per-application volume control, not the device volume control.

There is really nothing special about it.

Can Windows volume slider control hardware volume in USB DAC?

Can Windows volume slider control hardware volume in USB DAC?

hydrogenaud.io

Strange feature of Topping DAC

Strange feature of Topping DAC

hydrogenaud.io

 

[MIOM]

Under normal circumstances, that would also work for audio.
Unfortunately, human hearing is terrible and sneaky salesmen love to take advantage of that and sell you ... well... a bag of nothing for a ton of gold.

Imho, apart from the science aspect being interesting in general, making informed buying decisions backed by science, can save you a lot of resources and time, when buying gear and hunting for "upgrades. Because in this day and age, one does not need to spend big cash on audio to get a satisfying experience anymore. Both can be put into what really matters in the end: the music we play and enjoy with our systems. After all, the tech (and to a degree the science behind it) are just a means to an end.

We all have our beliefs. I stand by mine as explained.

Moving on

 

[Rottmannash]

In case you are still interested:

A "sighted" test refers to a test where you are doing the testing/switching and are aware of what plays when while trying to listen for differences. Here, all kinds of biases can creep up on you right up to the rather ridiculous notion of the device whose looks you like better ending up sounding nicer as well.

A "blind" test means, you still do the switching but you no longer know what is played when. Think of a black box with a button that arbitrarily switches between ASIO and WSAPI but you do not know which is is playing at any given time. An example would be Foobar's ABX plugin when you want to hear differences between two files.

A "doube blind" test means that you sit there and listen. A second person is doing all the switching and you do not get to see any components at all. In fact, you don't even know what is being tested: cables, amps, speakers, digital protocols. These tests are the most resilient ones but, obviously, also the most difficult to conduct properly.


As do I, .... because I find WASAPI exclusive such a headache in daily use. :'D

I'm curious-why do you find WASAPI exclusive a headache? I typically use that instead of ASIO w/ Audirvana and when using the native Qobuz app on PC.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I'm curious-why do you find WASAPI exclusive a headache? I typically use that instead of ASIO w/ Audirvana and when using the native Qobuz app on PC.

Typically I have multiple programs whose sound I want to hear running concurrently.

WASABI exclusive is okay, if you want to do a critical listening session and you do not do anything else but devote 100% of your personal CPU time to the music but in everyday use, when music is mostly in the background, exclusive is unusable to me.

 

[MIOM]

I wondered why everyone misinterpreted DJuan2022 post.

ASIO, WASAPI, Direct Sound... is there any difference in sound quality?

I think it's time to update your foobar2000. It's very outdated. Maybe it will fix the issue. I also don't have these clicks, using wasapi event output with D10s. Never had them with E10k too. Clicks are still there but I can activate the fade option on all output modi to remove them now...

www.audiosciencereview.com

As DJuan2022's screenshot suggested, the whole thing is about the usability of per-application volume control, not the device volume control.

There is really nothing special about it.

Can Windows volume slider control hardware volume in USB DAC?

Can Windows volume slider control hardware volume in USB DAC?

hydrogenaud.io

Strange feature of Topping DAC

Strange feature of Topping DAC

hydrogenaud.io

For clarity, and specifically what I was "questioning" by DJuan2022....

RadioBoss tech support informed me that Windows Mixer doesn't support ASIO, that's why you don't see your app in the mixer.

Now, I no longer run Windows 10 so, I don't have access to the old "Windows 10 Volume Mixer", but in Windows 11, the new "Volume Mixer" shown below clearly shows the ASIO driver, with volume leveling...

I can't speak on the OP's device, but my Teac UD-503 DAC / headphone amp using Teac's/Windows 11 drivers showed under "Volume Mixer" in both OS'(10/11). And is what I assume DJuan2022 meant when he said "Windows Mixer" (which no such name exists in Windows 10/11).

All that said, correct, there is no volume control from there for the AISO driver - whether at 100 or 1, the volume remains the same. At zero (0) the volume mutes. Even in my media player (JRiver Media Center), the volume setting has no control. Volume is controlled from the DAC itself, or its remote control.

Peace

 

[bennetng]

For clarity, and specifically what I was "questioning" by DJuan2022....

Now, I no longer run Windows 10 so, I don't have access to the old "Windows 10 Volume Mixer", but in Windows 11, the new "Volume Mixer" shown below clearly shows the ASIO driver, with volume leveling...

View attachment 215413

I can't speak on the OP's device, but my Teac UD-503 DAC / headphone amp using Teac's/Windows 11 drivers showed under "Volume Mixer" in both OS'(10/11). And is what I assume DJuan2022 meant when he said "Windows Mixer" (which no such name exists in Windows 10/11).

All that said, correct, there is no volume control from there for the AISO driver - whether at 100 or 1, the volume remains the same. At zero (0) the volume mutes. Even in my media player (JRiver Media Center), the volume setting has no control. Volume is controlled from the DAC itself, or its remote control.

Peace

The fact is the WASAPI audio architecture has been used since Windows Vista. Which means, despite how the UI of the Windows mixer looks like, the underlying implementation remains the same, otherwise it will make a lot of older hardware obsolete. In the case of the "Device" volume control, for example, I have a Realtek with optical output and a very old Roland USB interface (non class compliant). When they are being used with WASAPI exclusive output, the "Device" volume control will be unusable too. The Roland also has ASIO support and a 32-bit only Kernel Streaming mode, when these APIs are used, the "Device" volume control will be unusable too. On the other hand, when the Realtek is using analog output, even when using WASAPI exclusive output, the "Device" volume control is still usable, because the chip has hardware volume control on analog output, but not digital output.

Ending the Windows Audio Quality Debate

All the measurements that follow are purely digital using REW through the Windows audio stack with no A/D or D/A conversions, and so any faults are Windows' alone Excuse my laziness, didn't scan the entire thread, but can someone elaborate: is this some internal loopback by REW, or was an...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I also have a Creative PCIE soundcard with ASIO support, when ASIO is used, the "Device" volume control is still usable because the driver wants it to do so. The Creative card has hardware DSP, so volume control is trivial.

So whether the "Device" volume control is usable or not depends on the driver and hardware, not depends on ASIO or WASAPI exclusive mode. When people say "ASIO driver" it simply means "using a driver with ASIO API support". ASIO itself is not a driver model, how it behaves depends on how the driver utilize the ASIO API.

3rd-Party Developers Support & SDKs

We offer other manufacturers the chance to develop VST- and ASIO-based software and hardware for macOS and Windows by offering those technologies.

www.steinberg.net

Check the ASIO SDK pdf out:

The audio subsystem/hardware is treated as a software component (called audio driver). That is ASIO requires that the hardware manufacturers provide a driver, which abstracts the audio hardware in the way ASIO can deal with.

Just to make these thing clear to avoid others interpret how ASIO or WASAPI exclusive mode works merely based on which audio product or which version of Windows they are using. To put it simple, both ASIO and WASAPI exclusive can work good or bad or equal, depends on how the underlying driver works.

 

[MIOM]

The fact is the WASAPI audio architecture has been used since Windows Vista. Which means, despite how the UI of the Windows mixer looks like, the underlying implementation remains the same,...

For someone quoting my entire post you sure went out of your way to ignore what I posted while pushing something completely irrelevant to the intent

NOWHERE in my post you quoted did I once mention WASPI, or even opine ASIO was better or worse. I didn't even mention soundcards.

Sorry but you utterly and completely missed the point of my post (stated from the beginning) ... "For clarity, and specifically what I was "questioning" by DJuan2022...."

Peace

 

[kongwee]

I don't use windows. I do encounter the use of ASIO for Digital Audio Workstation where latency have to be managed with all the I/O which Windows default protocol can't offer. It is not intend to sound better or worst. Just deliver the binary better than other protocol. It is just like Protools have it's own protocol to work with it's DAW. In Mac, we use AU which is default in all Apple device.

 

[bennetng]

For someone quoting my entire post you sure went out of your way to ignore what I posted while pushing something completely irrelevant to the intent

NOWHERE in my post you quoted did I once mention WASPI, or even opine ASIO was better or worse. I didn't even mention soundcards.

Sorry but you utterly and completely missed the point of my post (stated from the beginning) ... "For clarity, and specifically what I was "questioning" by DJuan2022...."

Peace

My previous post is not only a reply targeting at you, but also a reply to the original topic.

ASIO, WASAPI, Direct Sound... is there any difference in sound quality?​

Just to make these thing clear to avoid others interpret how ASIO or WASAPI exclusive mode works merely based on which audio product or which version of Windows they are using. To put it simple, both ASIO and WASAPI exclusive can work good or bad or equal, depends on how the underlying driver works.

For example, this part is not specifically targeting at YOU. If you have to take it personally, then it is up to YOU.

If you use "quoting a post" to argue, my previous post was not quoting your post as well, then why did you quote my post?

ASIO, WASAPI, Direct Sound... is there any difference in sound quality?

Apologies if I misunderstand and ask for clarification. Indeed you do misunderstand it completely. Windows Audio simply sees all audio devices. If your media player is designed so, you can choose ASIO or WASAPI/Exclusive. This gives the media player exclusive lock on the audio device hence it...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Did you notice members other than YOU also replied to DJuan2022's post?

The part about how the UI looks like was targeting at you though, since you specifically quoted my post in your previous reply.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I also have a Creative PCIE soundcard with ASIO support, when ASIO is used, the "Device" volume control is still usable because the driver wants it to do so. The Creative card has hardware DSP, so volume control is trivial.

Now that you mentioned it, I think controlling the volume of Pianoteq (VST, running ASIO) via windows volume also worked on my Titanium HD.

Well, it kinda has to work, considering that most soundcards do not have an external volume control like my RME.