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AsciLab speakers are about to launch

Not really. R3 is 3 way speaker.
3 way has many of advantages compared to 2 way design. If there is 2 way LS50 6” version, C6B will be similar or even better.
Hi AsciLab, since the frequency response of C6B shows similar if not better bass extension than Kef R3 meta, could you explain in which sense the 3-way design has advantages over your passive radiators solution? I am curious to learn why we see so many new loudspeakers using passive radiators, including yours
 
Hi AsciLab, since the frequency response of C6B shows similar if not better bass extension than Kef R3 meta, could you explain in which sense the 3-way design has advantages over your passive radiators solution? I am curious to learn why we see so many new loudspeakers using passive radiators, including yours
PR has Pros and Cons compared with port design.

Pros
Less internal volume due to except port volume
Easy to tune by adding mass
No pipe resonance

Cons
Pricey
Midrange leaks through diaphragm
Steeper roll off

But, the advantages of 3 way design are not related with the way PR of Ported.

It is rather related with excursion.
Long excursion occurs a lot of problem for the most of drivers. Non-linearity of Bl(x), Kms(x), Le(x) and doppler effect are the typical factors.

3 way can divide bass and midrange response. By highpass filter for midrange, midrange driver doesn’t play bass range. It makes less excursion. If the crossover point is high enough, it can have almost no excursion. Then it can eliminate the many problems of nonlinearity by excursion.

That is the biggest advantages for 3 way speakers.

But for that reason, we crossed the mid and tweeter low as possible. It makes less distortion. And the Purifi drivers solved the problems itself.
 
Three brands using ports with Purifi drivers are Thrax, Kroma Atelier and Oephi.
 
Bass distortion on the C5 and C6 is surprisingly high.

The Swissonic A305 and A306 cost 1/4 as much as the Asci's yet beat them handily in bass (though not at higher frequencies):
5in Woofer_1.png 5in Woofer_2.png
6in Woofer_1.png 6in Woofer_2.png

Is this a disadvantage of PRs instead of ports? Or just lower quality woofers?

Thomann Swissonic A306 Harmonic Distortion (96dB @ 1m).pngThomann Swissonic A306 Harmonic Distortion (86dB @ 1m).pngThomann Swissonic A305 Harmonic Distortion (96dB @ 1m).pngThomann Swissonic A305 Harmonic Distortion (86dB @ 1m).png

Harmonic distortion (relative) 95dB SPL @1M.pngHarmonic distortion (relative) 85dB SPL @1M.pngHarmonic distortion (relative) 95dB.pngHarmonic distortion (relative) 85dB.png
 
Bass distortion on the C5 and C6 is surprisingly high.

The Swissonic A305 and A306 cost 1/4 as much as the Asci's yet beat them handily in bass (though not at higher frequencies):
View attachment 379606 View attachment 379605
View attachment 379604 View attachment 379603

Is this a disadvantage of PRs instead of ports? Or just lower quality woofers?

Sointuva AWG has PR and lowest distortion so I would not blame high distortion on PR themselves.
 
August
Release of C5b, C6b, and A6b active

September
Release of A6b passive

It has not been decided exactly what speakers will be released after that. It could be a floor-standing 3-way speaker or a KH310-style 3-way speaker.
I vote for the floorstanding 3-way !
 
Bass distortion on the C5 and C6 is surprisingly high.

The Swissonic A305 and A306 cost 1/4 as much as the Asci's yet beat them handily in bass (though not at higher frequencies):
View attachment 379606 View attachment 379605
View attachment 379604 View attachment 379603

Is this a disadvantage of PRs instead of ports? Or just lower quality woofers?

Several interprets are needed to understand the data.


At first, the high bass distortion below about 50Hz is due to high excursion below the PR(port too) tuning frequency.
A305 and 306 have highpass filter to avoid increasing excursion under tuning frequency, as many of Active speakers do.

For example, this is a excursion sim of a ported box tuned at 35Hz.
1720405414056.png

Below the tuning frequency, woofer and Port air mass (or PR) have same mechanical polarity. It makes the woofer move much higher excursion, While acoustical polarity has inverted each other so that make the slope 24dB / oct.

So high excursion / low SPL output make much high distortion below tuning frequency.
It is very common for passive speakers that is hard to have highpass filter by passive network at such a low frequency.

Then how about adding 2nd order highpass filter at tuning frequency?

1720408578346.png

It makes the excursion stable. Though the slope is 36dB/oct, but unnecessary excursion and distortion are eliminated. (A306 and A305 have this filter)
This is the main reason of difference distortion level below tuning frequency.



And second,
Around 50~200Hz, yes, our speaker has higher 2nd HD. But it is rather benign.
2nd HD at low frequency is mostly caused by asymmetric behavior. In this case, It is caused by Kms(x).


Let's see LSI measurements of SB17CAC35-4 that we are using.
These images from Erin's Audio Corner. Thanks to Erin.



1720409599568.png


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1720410840275.png


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1720409662347.png

1720409699791.png




1720410151372.png

C6B woofer excursion at 2.83V.
1720410064831.png

and 85dB SPL distortion of C6B, similar level of voltage.


Interpreting the measurements, Kms(x) symmetric range is much less than Bl(x). and also we can see X C is the main factor that limits the excursion.
(And it can prevent Bl droop causing great IMD over the whole frequency)

Due to less symmetric range and short excursion limit by suspension, Yes, the bass distortion rises faster than Swissonic.
But the reason why I said it is rather benign is Kms(x) causes bass distortion only.

1720410599661.png

(https://www.klippel.de/know-how/measurements/nonlinear-distortion/multi-tone-distortion.html)

Distortion from Kms(x) doesn't make IMD around mid to high frequency, only at bass response, While Bl(x) and Le(x) causing lot of AM distortion over the mid to high frequency.
I don't know how the measurements are of Swissonic woofer, but high level of 3rd HD(magnetic hysteresis maybe) over the mid frequency rather mean it doesn't have stable Le(x) curve. And it can occur AM distortion at mid to high frequency though the bass distortion is low. (AM distortion is much easy to be audible)



For summary,
C5B and C6B bass distortion below tuning frequency is common for passive speakers using port or PR.
50~200Hz high bass distortion is rather benign due to not make IMD over the mid to high frequency.
If you use subwoofer with C5B and C6B, their potential is very promising.







References.
 

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At some point a dedicated ASCILAB subwoofer perhaps?
Keith
 
There are I believe already plans…
Keith
 
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Looks like the vertical directivity has improved slightly at the crossover, with the active version?
 
Ascilab assemble, I like it, the green one is the ‘Hulk’?
Keith
 
What is the -3dB in the lows with the cabinet sealed (port blocked) for the C5B and the 6BC? Thanks.
CJH
 
What is the -3dB in the lows with the cabinet sealed (port blocked) for the C5B and the 6BC? Thanks.
CJH
It is Passive Radiator speaker. It doesn’t have a port.
 
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