AsciLab F6B Bookshelf Speaker Review

[ROOSKIE]

When you have a speaker like the Revel F328Be with 91dB sensitivity its ability to respond to the slightest audio impulse with sheer ease comes through in highly dynamic rhythmic passages. The same holds true for the Revel F228Be.

When you compare the F328Be side by side with a lower sensitivity design like the BMR Tower (86dB) and apply the considerable extra power needed from a Purifi amp to volume match the two speakers they both sound somewhat comparable. But as you spend time with the two designs you start to notice:
1. How the higher sensitivity design response is much easier to produce, which can translate into noticable improvement in dynamic response.
2. Significantly more headroom and the pre-amp volume control is 5dB lower to begin with.
3. It doesn't matter in all music but when playing highly dynamic, syncopated Jazz and Rock passages, one design sounds more lively.

I find the sensitivity level of a speaker design matters. It's not just a number.
Speakers with considerably lower sensitivity have a physical design limitation.

It won't be a big deal in all situations, but spend enough time at lower volumes with syncopated, dynamic music with both a low sensitivity speaker and a higher sensitivity speaker of good quality and you will likely find yourself gravitating toward the higher sensitivity design.

You are aware this doesn't make technical sense right?
I'm pretty sure you are having different label, different price but secretly the same wine in the bottle experience.
Expectation bias and other commonplace psych influences/bias are surely at play.

The only real design limitation of a lower sensitivity speaker is that it needs more power to play loudly.
As long as you have the correct level of amplifier power available and the speaker was appropriately designed to handle such power levels you are good.
Some low sensitivity speakers are not able to play loudly due to the driver designs and extra heat & compression setting in but others can easily handle large amounts of power and play very loudly well.

Yes with 6-9db sensitivity differences that requires a lot more power @ double the power for every 3db. So a 84db sensitive speaker needs 8watts for every 1watt that a 93db sensitive speaker would need to play at the same SPL. That can be limiting at loud volumes and in large spaces.
This really just applies at high SPL playback.
At the lower and medium levels you speak of nearly any 50watt amp can easily drive almost any speaker with almost any content with the full dynamic range of the recording. You are almost always using less than 5-10watts at medium and low levels. Even at 84db a single 84db sensitive speaker is using just 1watt to hit that level in an anechoic chamber and 8watts to hit 93db. Add in room gains/reflections and a second speaker and you are already fairly loud with just 8watts per channel on a lowish' sensitivity speaker.

Low sensitivity loudspeakers just require more power and drivers designed to handle high power inputs(coupled to amps with appropriate output capability). They are not less dynamic by default, they just take more power to operate.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Passive radiators act like ports in the sense of bass extension and group delay, but without any possible port noise caused by airflow, and more expensive because a tuned membrane is more expensive than a tube and flair. IMO it is the more elegant solution from an engineering point of view.

I also like passive radiators as a solution for many designs but often they are not exactly 'better' vs ports.

Passive radiators can add mechanical noise and harmonic and non harmonic distortions, they also raise the price considerably - not just the driver $ but the design has to have more cabinet construction time involved. You often need two or more radiators(or a large driver) to properly tune the design so even more $.
Likewise a port can be designed that has no audible port noise of any kind and can be made very cheaply and often installed at little extra cost.

The smaller the box and the lower the tuning frequency the bigger the port required to do it.
The main reason in my view for passive radiators is they allow tuning small boxes lower with more ease as fitting a huge port in a small box is very hard as the diameter of the port sets the limits for when when port noise sets in, but larger diameter means a longer port port for same tuning frequency.

In medium and large boxes where volume and space are not an issue I think passive radiators are a waste and generally chosen to make a design look like it has more drivers.
Rarely do I see it as otherwise in larger speakers.
A simple large port will work better and save $.
This is also true when tuning smaller boxes at frequencies where an appropriate port fits well.

So, I currently think Passive radiators are really only for smaller boxes(and some medium designs) tuned fairly low (& and things like outdoor speakers were open ports can be doorways to small homes).

 

[kyuu]

Why not buy a sub from Ascilab later?

View attachment 457021

Why should we wait for that? Do we have data showing it has any particular exceptional qualities? Price? There are many, many examples of companies that make good or great speakers but their sub options perform poorly and/or are a poor value.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Those speakers are about $800....
so $600 for a sub is what I consider a fair price )

PS : no animosity in my message) long live the music)

This subwoofer is nearly universally approved, indications/influencers/reviews point to it being one of the best performing subs that retail under $600

Landing Page - 10S MKII

RSL Speakers - A division of Rogersound Labs - is a factory direct loudspeaker manufacturer, since 1970, based in Los Angeles, California. Family owned and operated.

rslspeakers.com

 

[Endibol]

I find the sensitivity level of a speaker design matters. It's not just a number.
Speakers with considerably lower sensitivity have a physical design limitation.

It won't be a big deal in all situations, but spend enough time at lower volumes with syncopated, dynamic music with both a low sensitivity speaker and a higher sensitivity speaker of good quality and you will likely find yourself gravitating toward the higher sensitivity design.

If this is true I would like to hear a clear physical explanation for this. Who can enlighten me?

 

[AsciLab]

When you have a speaker like the Revel F328Be with 91dB sensitivity its ability to respond to the slightest audio impulse with sheer ease comes through in highly dynamic rhythmic passages. The same holds true for the Revel F228Be.

When you compare the F328Be side by side with a lower sensitivity design like the BMR Tower (86dB) and apply the considerable extra power needed from a Purifi amp to volume match the two speakers they both sound somewhat comparable. But as you spend time with the two designs you start to notice:
1. How the higher sensitivity design response is much easier to produce, which can translate into noticable improvement in dynamic response.
2. Significantly more headroom and the pre-amp volume control is 5dB lower to begin with.
3. It doesn't matter in all music but when playing highly dynamic, syncopated Jazz and Rock passages, one design sounds more lively.

I find the sensitivity level of a speaker design matters. It's not just a number.
Speakers with considerably lower sensitivity have a physical design limitation.

It won't be a big deal in all situations, but spend enough time at lower volumes with syncopated, dynamic music with both a low sensitivity speaker and a higher sensitivity speaker of good quality and you will likely find yourself gravitating toward the higher sensitivity design.

To get deeper bass in same given size lowers the sensitivity.

To get higher sensitivity in same bass extension needs more effective area=more driver or larger driver in same given impedance.

You are saying 3x8” 3 way floor standing speaker can be heard more resposive and lively compared to 1x6”2 way bookshelf speaker.
Can really the sensitivity be the only factor of your opinion?

Edit: Sorry, you compared 3x8” tower speaker with 1x8” tower speaker as example. But my opinion is still same.

 

[Desmo]

These speakers with some Kanto SX22 stands and the new WIIM amp ultra. That would be a nice setup.

Btw: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/359_ascilab

 

[Robbo99999]

I said reasonably priced) I think the Polk Audio HTS 12 would be a good option
The Svs sb3000 is about $1600.....

Polk Audio HTS 12 measurements :

Polk Audio HTS 12 Ported Subwoofer Review

The Polk HTS 12 is a 12” ported subwoofer with some innovative tech that allows it to produce clean, tight bass at a retail price of $549 that bellies its specs. Read our review.

www.audioholics.com

@AsciLab any suggestion for the "dream combo" ?

Work out how loud you want to be playing at whatever distance & then choose a sub which can keep up with the F6B.
There's this graph that is lifted from this excellent measurement of 10 different subs at following link:

I measured 10 subwoofers.

Hi, it's been a while! I would like to thank the people who made this project possible on a scale never before imagined in South Korea. I measured a total of 10 subwoofers, including my own DIY subwoofer(L26RO4Y), and measured them to the CEA-2010 standard using a Klippel TBM module. Below are...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So those lines in the graph above are the max useful SPL the subs can achieve at 2m distance, and when I say max useful I mean within certain distortion criteria if I remember rightly. So for instance you can see that the SVS SB3000 nails it for output above 30Hz and is the winner in that range above 30Hz. SB2000 is about a 2-5dB bump up in performance over SB1000, so workout what's acceptable for you re relatively distortion free max output, and then that above graph will help you. You might want to ask yourself is if any of these subs outperforms the Ascilabs in terms of output or not for whatever distortion when you pair them up so put in a sensible pairing. Looks this Ascilab can do 91dB at 1meter without noticeable distortion, but looks like it's chickening out a bit at 96dB, and remember the above graph for the subs is at 2m so twice the distance. But also be aware that music will push the sub more than the speaker due to the downward slope of the in room frequency curve combined with the fact that music has more SPL at lower frequency levels (ie in sub territory), so you want the sub to outperform the speakers a little bit I'd say. I'd go out on a limb and say SB2000 gives you extra room to breath but you might get away with SB1000, so get the SB2000 if you want to be sure and the money is not much of an object. (I've only really considered SVS subs here).

EDIT: and another thought, if you're going to be using RoomEQ on the bass then you might try to boost wide dips by turning up the subwoofer and then just cutting the then super high peaks down, in which case that can eat a significant number of dB's at those fairly specific frequency points, which is another variable that means you want an overpowered sub vs your speakers.

 

[Luvchampagne]

Work out how loud you want to be playing at whatever distance & then choose a sub which can keep up with the F6B.
There's this graph that is lifted from this excellent measurement of 10 different subs at following link:

I measured 10 subwoofers.

Hi, it's been a while! I would like to thank the people who made this project possible on a scale never before imagined in South Korea. I measured a total of 10 subwoofers, including my own DIY subwoofer(L26RO4Y), and measured them to the CEA-2010 standard using a Klippel TBM module. Below are...

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 457056
So those lines in the graph above are the max useful SPL the subs can achieve at 2m distance, and when I say max useful I mean within certain distortion criteria if I remember rightly. So for instance you can see that the SVS SB3000 nails it for output above 30Hz and is the winner in that range above 30Hz. SB2000 is about a 2-5dB bump up in performance over SB1000, so workout what's acceptable for you re relatively distortion free max output, and then that above graph will help you. You might want to ask yourself is if any of these subs outperforms the Ascilabs in terms of output or not for whatever distortion when you pair them up so put in a sensible pairing. Looks this Ascilab can do 91dB at 1meter without noticeable distortion, but looks like it's chickening out a bit at 96dB, and remember the above graph for the subs is at 2m so twice the distance. But also be aware that music will push the sub more than the speaker due to the downward slope of the in room frequency curve combined with the fact that music has more SPL at lower frequency levels (ie in sub territory), so you want the sub to outperform the speakers a little bit I'd say. I'd go out on a limb and say SB2000 gives you extra room to breath but you might get away with SB1000, so get the SB2000 if you want to be sure and the money is not much of an object. (I've only really considered SVS subs here).

EDIT: and another thought, if you're going to be using RoomEQ on the bass then you might try to boost wide dips by turning up the subwoofer and then just cutting the then super high peaks down, in which case that can eat a significant number of dB's at those fairly specific frequency points, which is another variable that means you want an overpowered sub vs your speakers.

Excellent detailed reply. Why chase after the level of detail and minimal distortion of Ascilab speakers and then cheap out on the Subwoofer? Right tool for the right job. Of course, he could always get a Polk or Fosi speaker and be done with it.

 

[Labjr]

This explains the AsciLAB speaker releases.

https://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/_files/ugd/5cac3a_dd3effcb0da34b038138cf5597f37d25.pdf

Keith

Ambitious offerings for a start-up.

 

[Xyrium]

I feel like I should buy a pair purely out of respect for how great they've been shown to be.

I look forward to seeing their next effort put under the scrutiny of our Audio sage , thanks for showing these off in your review Amirm .

Congratulations and thanks to all at AsciLab. Buying in the UK being super simple as Keith of Purite is keeping these in house too !

Thats the only decent thing about the UK at the moment, finally some national competitive advantage ( beyond our common tongue) , how truly novel ha ha

That's hilarious. Since I went active speakers for my desktop, I've sworn off the cabling mess of amps. However, it's soooo tempting being a gearhead.

 

[EJ3]

They would have to design an entirely new speaker, a passive cardioid uses the rear radiation of the drivers to generate the out of phase soundwave that cancels out the side and rear radiation. See how the Dutch&Dutch and the Sigberg Audio have side openings to redirect that the rear radiation of their mid-woofers.

That basically means new and different cabinetry, possibly different drivers to make use of that rear radiation. That's not to say it cannot be done, but you can't convert the crossover/DSP in the active C6C to a passive and call it a day. As I said, it's an entirely new speaker based on different principles.

It looks like an S6B will be in my future after I get paid at the end of this year.
I have a pair of ported (port on the underside, also) downward firing 12" bass cabs that I built which supposedly go to 29 Hz.
If I shove them against the wall, does that then make them cardioid? (the sound can't go behind them & then has to go to the sides & forward, right?)

 

[Luvchampagne]

It looks like an S6B will be in my future after I get paid at the end of this year.
I have a pair of ported (port on the underside, also) downward firing 12" bass cabs that I built which supposedly go to 29 Hz.
If I shove them against the wall, does that then make them cardioid? (the sound can't go behind them & then has to go to the sides & forward, right?)

You're joking I hope. Take any passive speaker and shove it into a corner. Voila. Cardioid speaker? I guess all Klipsch corner horns are cardioid?

 

[AsciLab]

It looks like an S6B will be in my future after I get paid at the end of this year.
I have a pair of ported (port on the underside, also) downward firing 12" bass cabs that I built which supposedly go to 29 Hz.
If I shove them against the wall, does that then make them cardioid? (the sound can't go behind them & then has to go to the sides & forward, right?)

The purpose of the cardioid speaker is less SBIR and more focusing sound image.
Placing a speaker to the corner makes similar result in bass, but midrange will be suffered by strong early reflections.
Our cardioid speaker has constant controlled dispersion from the 100Hz to the top frequency.

 

[EJ3]

When you have a speaker like the Revel F328Be with 91dB sensitivity its ability to respond to the slightest audio impulse with sheer ease comes through in highly dynamic rhythmic passages. The same holds true for the Revel F228Be.

When you compare the F328Be side by side with a lower sensitivity design like the BMR Tower (86dB) and apply the considerable extra power needed from a Purifi amp to volume match the two speakers they both sound somewhat comparable. But as you spend time with the two designs you start to notice:
1. How the higher sensitivity design response is much easier to produce, which can translate into noticable improvement in dynamic response.
2. Significantly more headroom and the pre-amp volume control is 5dB lower to begin with.
3. It doesn't matter in all music but when playing highly dynamic, syncopated Jazz and Rock passages, one design sounds more lively.

I find the sensitivity level of a speaker design matters. It's not just a number.
Speakers with considerably lower sensitivity have a physical design limitation.

It won't be a big deal in all situations, but spend enough time at lower volumes with syncopated, dynamic music with both a low sensitivity speaker and a higher sensitivity speaker of good quality and you will likely find yourself gravitating toward the higher sensitivity design.

Caveat: this is purely subjective & no actual controlled testing was some to arrive at this answer.):

I have a pair of (8 ohm, supposedly) speakers with a claimed 94 Db sensitivity & they'll put out 112 DB (measured by me) with 18 watts.
None of my other speakers (all with less than 89 Db ratings) can come close with that low wattage.
So the 94 Db sensitivity speakers are dynamic with that low of a wattage available. And the others are not.
But when the others have sufficient wattage, I do not feel that they are less dynamic than the high sensitivity speakers.
Only that the higher sensitivity speakers take less wattage to become dynamic.

 

[EJ3]

You're joking I hope. Take any passive speaker and shove it into a corner. Voila. Cardioid speaker? I guess all Klipsch corner horns are cardioid?

I have no idea of the Klipsch corner horns & what they do or don't do. I don't know anyone that has ever had a pair of them.
I am only talking about my subs. Naturally the mains (S6B's) would be where they are supposed to be located.
And No, I have no clue what my subs (whose FR is supposedly 20 Hz-80 Hz) actually do when shoved against the wall or into the corners. I never tried them that way.
That is a major part of why I come here: to learn things like that.
And as to whether or not it is worth trying or not trying.
With floor firing woofers & ports.
Or will there be a ASCILAB woofer that should be paired with the S6B's?

 

[Luvchampagne]

I have no idea of the Klipsch corner horns & what they do or don't do. I don't know anyone that has ever had a pair of them.
I am only talking about my subs. Naturally the mains (S6B's) would be where they are supposed to be located.
And No, I have no clue what my subs (whose FR is supposedly 20 Hz-80 Hz) actually do when shoved against the wall or into the corners. I never tried them that way.
That is a major part of why I come here: to learn things like that.
And as to whether or not it is worth trying or not trying.
With floor firing woofers & ports.
Or will there be a ASCILAB woofer that should be paired with the S6B's?

If you truly want to learn about cardioid speakers and the benefits of them, I would suggest doing some internet research on kii speakers and bruno putzeys. I'm not advocating that he is the only expert. Just that there are a number of very educational interviews on YT where he explains in detail what the kii speakers do and how they do it. Asking open ended questions and making uneducated assumptions like you're currently doing won't educate you on what you're asking and trying to learn.

 

[EJ3]

If you truly want to learn about cardioid speakers and the benefits of them, I would suggest doing some internet research on kii speakers and bruno putzeys. I'm not advocating that he is the only expert. Just that there are a number of very educational interviews on YT where he explains in detail what the kii speakers do and how they do it. Asking open ended questions and making uneducated assumptions like you're currently doing won't educate you on what you're asking and trying to learn.

It all has to wait until my current things are done BUT you have given me a direction that I can look into starting likely at the end of the summer.
Thank you.

 

[Luvchampagne]

Very welcome. Always trying to learn as well. Those videos gave me a push start.

 

[Gremlins]

You are aware this doesn't make technical sense right?
I'm pretty sure you are having different label, different price but secretly the same wine in the bottle experience.
Expectation bias and other commonplace psych influences/bias are surely at play.

The only real design limitation of a lower sensitivity speaker is that it needs more power to play loudly.
As long as you have the correct level of amplifier power available and the speaker was appropriately designed to handle such power levels you are good.
Some low sensitivity speakers are not able to play loudly due to the driver designs and extra heat & compression setting in but others can easily handle large amounts of power and play very loudly well.

Yes with 6-9db sensitivity differences that requires a lot more power @ double the power for every 3db. So a 84db sensitive speaker needs 8watts for every 1watt that a 93db sensitive speaker would need to play at the same SPL. That can be limiting at loud volumes and in large spaces.
This really just applies at high SPL playback.
At the lower and medium levels you speak of nearly any 50watt amp can easily drive almost any speaker with almost any content with the full dynamic range of the recording. You are almost always using less than 5-10watts at medium and low levels. Even at 84db a single 84db sensitive speaker is using just 1watt to hit that level in an anechoic chamber and 8watts to hit 93db. Add in room gains/reflections and a second speaker and you are already fairly loud with just 8watts per channel on a lowish' sensitivity speaker.

Low sensitivity loudspeakers just require more power and drivers designed to handle high power inputs(coupled to amps with appropriate output capability). They are not less dynamic by default, they just take more power to operate.

True

So why do audiophiles still want some McIntosh at 200w to supply 90db speakers ? According to them, it gives more dynamics

Would be good that amir writes down an article on this