Ascilab C8C vs. Pitt & Giblin Superwax Mini

[pawsman]

I've been aware of the many positive attributes of powered speakers since I heard a prototype
of the powered Large Advent speaker over 50 years ago. They have finally come of age with
the new generation of Hypex/DSP powered speakers, and I've decided to take the plunge.
These 2 are at the top of my list; I love the extreme engineering competency exhibited by the
C8C, the highest rating on Spino-rama scale, and passing every test of Amir's with flying colors.
But I also love the Baltic birch construction, the cast bronze horn, the compression driver,
the low crossover and the very powerful, dynamic 15" driver implemented in the Superwax Mini.
Also the nod to it's Klipsch/JBL heritage, albeit with a higher level of execution. The anecdotal
listening tests for both are very good as reported here in ASR and other reviews.
Unfortunately, I won't have a chance to Audition either of them before purchase, so I'll be
buying "blind" so to speak. My head says the C8C, but my heart says the Superwax Mini.
What thinks the ASR Board?

pawsman

 

[amirm]

It is nice to see them post spin measurements. They look good! I worry a bit about all the sharp edges causing diffraction but then again that is how you get the hardwood construction.

Drop them a message to see if they are willing to send a sample for review. I only need one speaker so it should not be too onerous to send it here.

Price wise, it is twice as much as C8C by itself. For similar money, you would be able to get BX8C companion for the C8C which makes it a formidable competitor.

 

[kemmler3D]

If Amir is willing to say the P&G spin looks good compared to a genuinely excellent speaker that he also sells, it's probably a good speaker. If you strongly prefer the looks & vibes of the P&G and the price doesn't bother you, you might be happier with that.

If you really can't decide, flip a coin and see how you feel about the result the instant you see it, that will tell you.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

There’s a thread here too

Pitt & Giblin speakers (Spinorama available)

I was looking at 2-way speakers with a compression and checked Pitt & Giblin's website for specs. To my serendipitous satisfaction, they have provided what looks to be spinoramas for some of their models. Those measurements indicate very well performing models within the limitations of their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[pawsman]

It is nice to see them post spin measurements. They look good! I worry a bit about all the sharp edges causing diffraction but then again that is how you get the hardwood construction.

Drop them a message to see if they are willing to send a sample for review. I only need one speaker so it should not be too onerous to send it here.

Price wise, it is twice as much as C8C by itself. For similar money, you would be able to get BX8C companion for the C8C which makes it a formidable competitor.

Amir,
I'll ask about sending you one, but they are backed up I think. When will the C8C be available again?

 

[AudioJester]

@pawsman - are you in Aus?

I own the C8C and have been fortunate to audition the Superwax mini.

Both are superb speakers, you would be happy with either. Its when you add the BX8C that the C8C goes to another level.

If you have an accoustically poor listening space then the C8C had big advantages. If you want a work of art the P&G is exceptionally beautiful. Iam in the process of building a secondary dwelling and P&G is top of the list!

 

[pawsman]

@pawsman - are you in Aus?

I own the C8C and have been fortunate to audition the Superwax mini.

Both are superb speakers, you would be happy with either. Its when you add the BX8C that the C8C goes to another level.

If you have an accoustically poor listening space then the C8C had big advantages. If you want a work of art the P&G is exceptionally beautiful. Iam in the process of building a secondary dwelling and P&G is top of the list!

No, I'm in the southeastern US. I'm glad you chimed in, it's great to have an ASR guy who's auditioned both. Have you been to P&G's facility in Tasmania?
They do some incredibly impressive work, the Cast is an amazing design, and the Flare also. These guys do really creative things with speaker design. I talked to Ross
on the phone a few days ago, he assured me that I would have no problems putting the Super Mini in my smallish-medium sized room (13ft.x 15 ft, with an A frame ceiling peaking at 13-14 ft. high with a large entrance way into my dining area). I can imagine the dynamics on this speaker are amazing. I listen primarily to Classical
orchestral and solo piano music, both of which can be very dynamic. I have an extensive CD collection (I'm a physical redbook CD guy, I don't do streaming yet). I'm sure my Reference CD stack (with a lot of the Keith Johnson recordings on RR, also Pentatone, and Channel Classics) would sound amazing on the Super Mini. I wonder how the C8C Dynamic range and bass response would compare to the Super Mini? (without BX8C). My main concern was that my room wouldn't support the Super Mini,
apparently they can do room correction if you have some major problems. Do you have the BX8C now? I"ll probably make a decision soon-

pawsman

 

[amirm]

Amir,
I'll ask about sending you one, but they are backed up I think. When will the C8C be available again?

Our order is being processed and I hope that the production can finish in June with us getting products in July.

 

[Keith_W]

Unfortunately we don't have a full suite of measurements for the C8C and the Pitt & Giblin. The Spin only tells you part of the story, and i'm not even sure if it's the most important part. What is more relevant is whether this speaker will go loud enough for your needs. I mean, what's the point of a perfect looking Spin if the speaker distorts like mad when you ask it to fill a big room with sound?

I have heard the P&G, but I haven't heard the C8C. I have even had a chance to lift one, Ross handed it to me and asked me to hold it. There is so much cast metal in this thing that it's really heavy. I think it sounds great, and I like the styling which is a bit unique. But there is that difference in price ...

 

[awf]

Hi, I can offer some subjective opinion here as a happy owner of the Superwax Mini for more than two years who also recently spent an hour with the Ascilab C8C and BX8C combo at the company's well treated space in Seoul. The bottom line is both are exceptional speakers and you can't go wrong with either.

The spinoramas already tell you a lot about how they sound. They're both excellent enough that I can't tell you if one is sonically superior to the other, especially given no one has ever listened to them in the same place as far as I can tell. The cardioid design may matter to some people, and whether you use additional subs or Dirac ART may be factors as well.

Where they differ the most is how they look, but you already know that.

I'm kind of the opposite of @AudioJester. If I had a secondary dwelling, the Ascilab C8C + BX8C would be top of my list. But nothing will replace my Superwax Mini.

I just noticed @soupcon in the other thread saying they were impressed by the superwax, superwax mini and flares as an owner of the kii/bxts, which are directly comparable to the C8C+BX8C. Check that out too.

 

[DanielT]

Where they differ the most is how they look, but you already know that.

Not just looks. Superwax Mini is a two-way speaker with 15 woofers (together with compression driver?).

A different design, different type of drivers than Ascilab C8C. Plus Superwax Mini costs almost twice as much.

BUT if Superwax Mini has a high clean SPL (which I consider to be an important parameter for this type of speaker) and it otherwise measures well, then its price is actually not that high, compared to other similar ones. As @kharan says in the thread below:

I do think they are pricey and out of my personal range too, though as far as the Superwax Mini goes I really can't see any other 15" at 11 k€. JBL asks for 18 k€ for the equivalent model and it's a passive one. I'll also say I don't have room for them.

Pitt & Giblin speakers (Spinorama available)

I was looking at 2-way speakers with a compression and checked Pitt & Giblin's website for specs. To my serendipitous satisfaction, they have provided what looks to be spinoramas for some of their models. Those measurements indicate very well performing models within the limitations of their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

@awf how do you experience Superwax Mini's SPL capability? Do you think you can play loud while still sounding clean?
How do you experience the Superwax Mini's SPL capability vs. your Ascilab C8C BX8C combo's SPL capability?

 

[Karmacoma]

A wooden Ascilab with a brass waveguide for me please.

They both have something to teach to each other.

 

[awf]

Not just looks. Superwax Mini is a two-way speaker with 15 woofers (together with compression driver?).
View attachment 535885
A different design, different type of drivers than Ascilab C8C. Plus Superwax Mini costs almost twice as much.

BUT if Superwax Mini has a high clean SPL (which I consider to be an important parameter for this type of speaker) and it otherwise measures well, then its price is actually not that high, compared to other similar ones. As @kharan says in the thread below:

I do think they are pricey and out of my personal range too, though as far as the Superwax Mini goes I really can't see any other 15" at 11 k€. JBL asks for 18 k€ for the equivalent model and it's a passive one. I'll also say I don't have room for them.

Pitt & Giblin speakers (Spinorama available)

I was looking at 2-way speakers with a compression and checked Pitt & Giblin's website for specs. To my serendipitous satisfaction, they have provided what looks to be spinoramas for some of their models. Those measurements indicate very well performing models within the limitations of their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

@awf how do you experience Superwax Mini's SPL capability? Do you think you can play loud while still sounding clean?
How do you experience the Superwax Mini's SPL capability vs. your Ascilab C8C BX8C combo's SPL capability?

Of course the designs are different beyond aesthetics: waveguides, drivers, crossovers and filters, etc. As I said I was giving my subjective impression of the totality of the output. The measurements are consistent with how I experienced the speakers in terms of flatness, bass extension and directivity. Mind you I only listened to C8C WITH BX8C, which are more expensive than a pair of the mini. The different designs also mean different tweeter height, btw.

I don’t think I ever pushed any of the speakers to their limits in my listening space. I at most listen at 90dB and typically around 80dB average levels, about 3-4 meters from the speakers. The Superwax Mini has always sounded super clean to me.

 

[AudioJester]

At the release price the C8C/BX8C was cheaper delivered to me in Aus than the listed price for the Superwax mini. But Ascilabs has finished that preorder special.

In the space Iam currently using cardioid has a big advantage - at least compared to my 8361a. But thats going to be room dependent. The cardioid P&G speaker looks interesting as well - i need to hear it!

The superwax mini gets loud enough for most domestic applications, but the physics of the multiple drivers of the C8C/BX8C will go louder. The non-mini Superwax maybe more comparable or exceed in output - another speaker I want to hear.

The Superwax mini is the "looker" - its really gorgeous, the C8C is the bargain with the cardioid advantage. Pick what suits you best, unfortunately going to be near impossible to hear side by side.

 

[awf]

At the release price the C8C/BX8C was cheaper delivered to me in Aus than the listed price for the Superwax mini. But Ascilabs has finished that preorder special.

In the space Iam currently using cardioid has a big advantage - at least compared to my 8361a. But thats going to be room dependent. The cardioid P&G speaker looks interesting as well - i need to hear it!

The superwax mini gets loud enough for most domestic applications, but the physics of the multiple drivers of the C8C/BX8C will go louder. The non-mini Superwax maybe more comparable or exceed in output - another speaker I want to hear.

The Superwax mini is the "looker" - it’s really gorgeous, the C8C is the bargain with the cardioid advantage. Pick what suits you best, unfortunately going to be near impossible to hear side by side.

What cardioid P&G speaker?

 

[ppierre]

What cardioid P&G speaker?

Exhibition 30

CARDIOiD control.
Vents on the rear of Exhibition 30 are tuned exits for the dual 12” mid-bass drivers, where a resistive material and internal path length is designed to reject unwanted rearward energy, and further improve the consistency of frequency response into the mid-bass region. This results in a loudspeaker behaviour that is kind to your ears on stage, and plays nicely with microphones and instrumentation.

 

[awf]

Exhibition 30

Nice.

Then there’s this beast if you need the firepower

Photo from their instagram:

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[pittandgiblin]

The superwax mini gets loud enough for most domestic applications, but the physics of the multiple drivers of the C8C/BX8C will go louder. The non-mini Superwax maybe more comparable or exceed in output - another speaker I want to hear.

I would be keen to see your physics calcs here. My back of napkin maths shows 4x8" drivers are approximately equivalent to 1x15" driver in surface area alone - purely as a reference*. The BX8C does have 2x the RMS watts on hand per cabinet for the drivers but there's likely some inefficiencies in the alignment in cardiod mode. Then there's the extra two side firing 8's on the C8C with the same power again. I don't think it's as straight cut as you have made it out to be, but I'm genuinely interested! The assumption here is that the driver excursion is similar and the amplifiers can produce adequate power to get them there*. RG

*edited to conform with rules

 

[AudioJester]

I would be keen to see your physics calcs here. My back of napkin maths shows 4x8" drivers are approximately equivalent to 1x15" driver in surface area alone. The BX8C does have 2x the RMS watts on hand per cabinet for the drivers (only 3dB), but there's likely some inefficiencies in the cardiod alignment. All of the Asci drivers are going to be less sensitive across the board and the LF is sealed. At high playback levels the Mini's compression driver will outperform a direct radiating tweeter by a significant margin, we know this as we've studied it for years... Then there's the extra two side firing 8's on the C8C with the same power again, maybe they're assisting a bit, maybe not. I don't think it's as straight cut as you have made it out to be, but I'm genuinely interested! RG

You may be right. I was working on 6 x 8 inch drivers per side.

Ascilabs have posted distortion measurements at 86dB and 96dB, as well as MD.
Do you have something comparable for the Superwax mini?

Whats the best way to compare output between speakers?

By the way, welcome, great to see you posting here! Big fan of your work

 

[markstein]

It is nice to see them post spin measurements. They look good! I worry a bit about all the sharp edges causing diffraction but then again that is how you get the hardwood construction.

Drop them a message to see if they are willing to send a sample for review. I only need one speaker so it should not be too onerous to send it here.

Price wise, it is twice as much as C8C by itself. For similar money, you would be able to get BX8C companion for the C8C which makes it a formidable competitor.

I already asked them earlier this year to get in touch with ASR and also to publish more detailed unsmoothed data through spinorama.org. I also asked for distortion measurements, and did not receive them. Communication was very kind, however, my impression was that there was no interest from the developers to reach a more technical oriented user base - they seem to see their speakers more as a lifestyle product.

I was seriously considering these speakers as successors for my KH310, along with KH420, D&D 8C and Genelec S360 (most similar to the Superwax Mini). Now I am a happy owner of Ascilab C8C.

While the existing measurements of all P&G speakers look extremely good and I also like their retro look and especially the tweeter horn, they seem "too good to be true", and I assume the smoothing of measurement data may hide small resonances and diffraction.

Btw., if there are users in Germany interested in listening to the Superwax, I could name one user in Northern Germany who might be willing to arrange a listening session.