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Genelec makes it easy to intrgrate subs with GLM - but you have to use Genelec subs which are expensive and ugly
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Ascilab C8C Active Speaker Review
- Thread starter amirm
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I used to believe multiple subs in diffetent locations was better but I have come to believe full range or tightly co- located subs are generally better. At the end of the day you are trading time domain accuacy, a larger sweet spot, and much simpler integration you get with full range speakers for possible smoother FR (assuming the potentially better sub locations are actually available for use) for spliiting subs from mains.
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Its all a balance of compromises. Ends up being what works best for your system in your space and intended use.
But technology has rapidly advanced. Full range cardioid speakers with subs and Dirac ART...
Having said that, loads of users here have great results with various existing cheaper/simpler strategies.
We are well down the rabbit hole of subs and bass management here. Just a thought: For a mixing setup, room effects are minimal, so bass response is much less tricky even with a sub - you're sitting right there and you can simply turn the knob until it sounds good. For my desktop setup I literally use the flat sub as a footrest.
Anyway, I truly doubt you will need or want a sub with near field C8Cs. For moderate volume there is usable bass into the mid-20s.
Anyway, I truly doubt you will need or want a sub with near field C8Cs. For moderate volume there is usable bass into the mid-20s.
Thank you guys, your input is very much appreciated.
I’m leaning toward keeping the setup simple, meaning no added cost or complexity from subwoofers. I’ll focus on managing (lessen) the inevitable peaks and nulls in the 0–300 Hz range through careful speaker placement and targeted absorption. I'm aware that the absorption I'm able to fit in my room won't be effective at really low frequencies.
The sweet spot doesn’t need to be wide for my use case, since this is strictly for one-guy mixing at a static spot.
I only need about 85–90 dB SPL maximum at the listening position.
I will most likely be using a room correction system like Dirac Live or IKM ARC Studio hardware. I know that it will eat into the active monitor's headroom in case of nulls/cancellations, so the goal is to minimize variations in FR through many small improvements and adjustments.
The monitors will be placed on stands behind my small desk, with a listening distance of about 1.3 meters and most likely at an asymmetrical distance floor/ceiling. There will be desk and floor bounce/reflections, but what can you do.
I’m hoping the C8C’s cardioid behavior will smooth out the in-room response at the listening position, especially in the 150–500 Hz region, reducing how much active correction is needed there.
I’m leaning toward keeping the setup simple, meaning no added cost or complexity from subwoofers. I’ll focus on managing (lessen) the inevitable peaks and nulls in the 0–300 Hz range through careful speaker placement and targeted absorption. I'm aware that the absorption I'm able to fit in my room won't be effective at really low frequencies.
The sweet spot doesn’t need to be wide for my use case, since this is strictly for one-guy mixing at a static spot.
I only need about 85–90 dB SPL maximum at the listening position.
I will most likely be using a room correction system like Dirac Live or IKM ARC Studio hardware. I know that it will eat into the active monitor's headroom in case of nulls/cancellations, so the goal is to minimize variations in FR through many small improvements and adjustments.
The monitors will be placed on stands behind my small desk, with a listening distance of about 1.3 meters and most likely at an asymmetrical distance floor/ceiling. There will be desk and floor bounce/reflections, but what can you do.
I’m hoping the C8C’s cardioid behavior will smooth out the in-room response at the listening position, especially in the 150–500 Hz region, reducing how much active correction is needed there.
If you can fit them well space-wise, then go for it. With the C8Cs you wont really need any additional software if you are not doing subwoofer integration, just measure with REW and apply correction in the DSP menu of the speaker where needed. Or use OCA's Gsonic for correction, which is free for Stereo and very positively reviewed here.
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If Genelec has made one thing clear, looks and SO factor are a far distance concern.
I am not using it myself (I have them integrated into a multichannel system with Dirac), but you can take a look at the manual of the C8Cs posted earlier here:
C8C Starter guide here,
KeithAsciLab Manual - Google Drive
drive.google.com
and the manual of the Hypex Software:
Hypex filter design software
Hypex Filter Designer (HFD) is a program to configure Hypex Electronics B.V. DSPmodules. This software is only available for Windows.
www.hypex.nl
The Hypex FusionAmp EQ gives you
9 EQs (either PEQ or low shelf or high shelf):
Q = 0.1 ... 20
Gain = -15.9 ... +15.9dB
F = 10 ... 50kHz
@markstein was quicker.
Nevertheless, with the FA253 amplifier like in the C8C you get the following options for each speaker and bear in mind, that also Hypex releases separate firmware (current is DSP3-213 v5.82).in EQ:
EQ-1, EQ-2, EQ-3, EQ-4, EQ-5, EQ-6, EQ-7, EQ-8, EQ-9
Type: BoostCut, ShelfLo, ShelfHi
[min. / max.]
F: 10,00 / 50000,00 Hz
Q: 0,10 / 20,00
Gain: -15,90 / +15,90 dB
Preset volume offsets (in Device settings):
- 24,0 / +24,0
But limit yourself with the boosting of nulls (maybe ≤5 dB) or better, avoid completely.
LumiAudioNut
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I’m not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I recently noticed that the Ascilab C8C speaker is sitting at the tippity top of Spinorama.org’s speaker ranking. This, by itself is pretty amazing, but even more so when you consider how new to the speaker design game Ascilab is. I can’t even imagine what their floor standers will be like….
www.spinorama.org
(please note that: ASR’s measurements are the basis for many of the speaker scores)
The C8C tops such all time greats as the KEF Blade II, KEF LS60, Dutch& Dutch 8C, and Genelec 8351B (aka The Ones).
www.spinorama.org
With speakers like these and the latest amplifier offerings from Purifi and Hypex’s these are great times to be an audiophile!
-Lumi!
Ranking table of speaker's measurements
www.spinorama.org
(please note that: ASR’s measurements are the basis for many of the speaker scores)
The C8C tops such all time greats as the KEF Blade II, KEF LS60, Dutch& Dutch 8C, and Genelec 8351B (aka The Ones).
Ranking table of speaker's measurements
www.spinorama.org
With speakers like these and the latest amplifier offerings from Purifi and Hypex’s these are great times to be an audiophile!
-Lumi!
RexrothPigeon
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smart guys with their own klippel nfs hit different
Very interesting speakers and very interesting thread (and the "sister" thread about V1.1) as well
Given the excellent bass reproduction of the C8C, I’m not sure, however – setting aside the additional cost – whether the BX8C really makes that much sense in small and medium-sized rooms; at 136 cm tall, they’re proper floorstanding speakers, which aren’t that easy to fit into many rooms (I speak from personal experience; my Kudos Titan 808s are truly massive, even though they’re ‘only’ 117 cm tall).
On that note, another question:
According to the Ascilab manual, the centre of the C8C – measured 28 cm from the bottom of the speaker cabinet – should be horizontally at ear level.
If I add the BX8C, which is 80 cm high, that would mean my ears would have to be about 108 cm from the floor.
That doesn’t really make sense to me: sitting in an armchair or on a sofa – and I’m not short – I can barely reach 108 cm “ear height”.
Final question: What is the ideal speaker stand for the C8C, if it’s not going to be the BX8C, which is very expensive for a stand?
Given the excellent bass reproduction of the C8C, I’m not sure, however – setting aside the additional cost – whether the BX8C really makes that much sense in small and medium-sized rooms; at 136 cm tall, they’re proper floorstanding speakers, which aren’t that easy to fit into many rooms (I speak from personal experience; my Kudos Titan 808s are truly massive, even though they’re ‘only’ 117 cm tall).
On that note, another question:
According to the Ascilab manual, the centre of the C8C – measured 28 cm from the bottom of the speaker cabinet – should be horizontally at ear level.
If I add the BX8C, which is 80 cm high, that would mean my ears would have to be about 108 cm from the floor.
That doesn’t really make sense to me: sitting in an armchair or on a sofa – and I’m not short – I can barely reach 108 cm “ear height”.
Final question: What is the ideal speaker stand for the C8C, if it’s not going to be the BX8C, which is very expensive for a stand?
If cost is not a concern you can never have too much bass or too much headroom, especially when using DSP to smooth out room modes.
Very interesting speakers and very interesting thread (and the "sister" thread about V1.1) as well
Given the excellent bass reproduction of the C8C, I’m not sure, however – setting aside the additional cost – whether the BX8C really makes that much sense in small and medium-sized rooms; at 136 cm tall, they’re proper floorstanding speakers, which aren’t that easy to fit into many rooms (I speak from personal experience; my Kudos Titan 808s are truly massive, even though they’re ‘only’ 117 cm tall).
On that note, another question:
According to the Ascilab manual, the centre of the C8C – measured 28 cm from the bottom of the speaker cabinet – should be horizontally at ear level.
If I add the BX8C, which is 80 cm high, that would mean my ears would have to be about 108 cm from the floor.
That doesn’t really make sense to me: sitting in an armchair or on a sofa – and I’m not short – I can barely reach 108 cm “ear height”.
Final question: What is the ideal speaker stand for the C8C, if it’s not going to be the BX8C, which is very expensive for a stand?
If you do the calculation, then at 2.5 m and for a position within 5 degree of the tweeter height, you can position your head within a 44 cm window. The reverse is also true, if you have a set ear height, you can position the tweeter within 44 cm and still be within that 5 degree cone.
As for bass, it all depends on room gain, for my room I have bass extension down to 20 Hz at any listening volume I consider reasonable for 99.99% of musical content. I think the only exceptions would be some of the tracks Amir shared with load and loads sub bass, but a very quiet track otherwise, and even then it's perfectly fine at a comfortable short term listening volume/
Same here.
I would rather invest into 4x distributed subwoofers incl. DSP, maybe also Dirac ART, than into 2x cardioid bass modules.
My speaker stands are 80 cm high, and that works well with 95 cm ear level 3.8 away. More often speaker stands are too short than too high...
Your calculation is correct, ofc.
Thx!
I used Dayton Audio 20” stands. They put the tweeter about 2” above my ear level when seated. They are IMO overpriced (like all speaker stands?) and utilitarian but they do the trick.Very interesting speakers and very interesting thread (and the "sister" thread about V1.1) as well
Given the excellent bass reproduction of the C8C, I’m not sure, however – setting aside the additional cost – whether the BX8C really makes that much sense in small and medium-sized rooms; at 136 cm tall, they’re proper floorstanding speakers, which aren’t that easy to fit into many rooms (I speak from personal experience; my Kudos Titan 808s are truly massive, even though they’re ‘only’ 117 cm tall).
On that note, another question:
According to the Ascilab manual, the centre of the C8C – measured 28 cm from the bottom of the speaker cabinet – should be horizontally at ear level.
If I add the BX8C, which is 80 cm high, that would mean my ears would have to be about 108 cm from the floor.
That doesn’t really make sense to me: sitting in an armchair or on a sofa – and I’m not short – I can barely reach 108 cm “ear height”.
Final question: What is the ideal speaker stand for the C8C, if it’s not going to be the BX8C, which is very expensive for a stand?
Before the speakers arrived I also got an RSL Speedwoofer 10S-II, planning to fill in below ~32hz. It is a very capable sub but candidly, based on on/off listening tests, it is really not contributing much audibly even with deep bass. I sort of wish I had postponed that purchase.
I have to admit I don’t understand the current fashion of multiple subs. Tuning one sub is much easier than multiples and much, much easier for physical space requirements.
The BX8C in my understanding does contribute some bass but is targeted mostly at creating cardioid radiation of midbass to match the C8C’s upper bass and higher frequencies.
Yes, it's not all the same. Multi-subs certainly cannot substitute what the BX8C is intended to do but could always be an addition. This reminds me of the Genelec 2x 8361A + 2x W371A + 1x 7380A dream-setup.
Multi-subs are mainly used to flatten the frequency response amongst several, rather than just one, listening positions but this also only works nicely, if all the best placement spots are available (very rarely the case in an average living room). The extra headroom over the C8C + BX8C combo of additional subwoofer(s) would definitely make it (high-)end-game^^ (also for movies).
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