Ascilab C8C Active Speaker Review

[829]

This may have been asked, but I couldn't see it in thread...how would these compare to the kef ls60?

I would consider the KEF LS60 if:

• Found at reduced price; sometimes is available at ~5.000 USD/EUR (pair)
• Floor stander and / or its slim profile is preferred
• The internal connectivity options are required (built-in streaming etc.)

Besides that, vertical directivity is better due to the coax-driver on the KEF but this frankly only matters if you sit with your ears a lot above or below the reference point (usually the HF driver's longitudinal axis).

Furthermore, I'd prefer the horizontal directivity of the C8C which is more important than vertically and if your listening distance is farther away or you like to listen at elevated levels (also for movies), distortion levels look favourable to me on the C8C as well.

Addition: The cardioid nature of the C8C might help tackle some room modes (from lesser energy being radiated behind the speakers within the cardioid pattern). But in reality you will still face modal issues, since with room gain both speakers reach down to 20 Hz easily.
___________
#typo fixed

See Erin's review of the KEF LS60.

My assumption: the print on the back is a standard print of the Hypex Fusion amp, and AsciLab is simply using a custom configuration different from the Hypex standard configuration.

I think your assumption is correct. I found in the Quick Starter guide:

When using the speakers in stereo, both speakers must be set to the same preset. Using different presets between left and right speakers will cause timing and phase differences, resulting in an unstable stereo image.

I would probably have come across the issue, since usually I first try intuitively (which would have been wrong) and then read if something does not work as expected. But yes, some information could be easier to find in the manuals. It's not that simple to quickly find things in a text-document like format.

 

[TheKoC]

Yeah, if you switch one speaker to P1 and the other to P2, you can immediately hear the speakers beeing out of phase, with no clear center image.

 

[LordxNohman]

I would consider the KEF LS60 if:

• Found at reduced price; sometimes is available at ~5.000 USD/EUR (pair)
• Floor stander and / or its slim profile is preferred
• The internal connectivity options are required (built-in streaming etc.)

Besides that, vertical directivity is better due to the coax-driver on the KEF but this frankly only matters if you sit with your ears a lot above or below the reference point (usually the HF driver's longitudinal axis).

Furthermore, I'd prefer the horizontal directivity of the C8C which is more important than vertically and if your listening distance is farther away or you like to listen at elevated levels (also for movies), distortion levels look favourable to me on the C8C as well.

Addition: The cardioid nature of the C8C might help tackle some room modes (from lesser energy being radiated behind the speakers within the cardioid pattern). But in reality you will still face modal issues, since with room again both speakers reach down to 20 Hz easily.

See Erin's review of the KEF LS60.



I think your assumption is correct. I found in the Quick Starter guide:



I would probably have come across the issue, since usually I first try intuitively (which would have been wrong) and then read if something does not work as expected. But yes, some information could be easier to find in the manuals. It's not that simple to quickly find things in a text-document like format.

Thank you for the details!!

One final question if I was listening away from the speakers say to the left or the right and not in an ideal position (say 30% of the time) would this impact a decision on these.

 

[829]

Thank you for the details!!

One final question if I was listening away from the speakers say to the left or the right and not in an ideal position (say 30% of the time) would this impact a decision on these.

No, not particularly with this in mind. Both speakers maintain their acoustic characteristics very well off-axis. Check the measurements as per Erin's explanation: The Listening Window is a spatial average of the nine amplitude responses in the ±10º vertical and ±30º horizontal angular range. This encompasses those listeners who sit within a typical home theater audience, as well as those who disregard the normal rules when listening alone.

...While the C8C provides a flatter anechoic response in general, especially after the firmware update to V1.1 (which is not yet released @AsciLab?). However, if you then apply room-EQ the audible differences in the horizontal plane will be a lot smaller (probably near zero) than to what you'd expect from reading these graphs alone; without taking your own room's acoustics into consideration.

 

[LordxNohman]

No, not particularly with this in mind. Both speakers maintain their acoustic characteristics very well off-axis. Check the measurements as per Erin's explanation: The Listening Window is a spatial average of the nine amplitude responses in the ±10º vertical and ±30º horizontal angular range. This encompasses those listeners who sit within a typical home theater audience, as well as those who disregard the normal rules when listening alone.

...While the C8C provides a flatter anechoic response in general, especially after the firmware update to V1.1 (which is not yet released @AsciLab?). However, if you then apply room-EQ the audible differences in the horizontal plane will be a lot smaller (probably near zero) than to what you'd expect from reading these graphs alone; without taking your own room's acoustics into consideration.

Really appreciate the thoughtful response. I'm a little less up to speed on the measurements this why I asked and appreciate the info

 

[markstein]

No, not particularly with this in mind. Both speakers maintain their acoustic characteristics very well off-axis. Check the measurements as per Erin's explanation: The Listening Window is a spatial average of the nine amplitude responses in the ±10º vertical and ±30º horizontal angular range. This encompasses those listeners who sit within a typical home theater audience, as well as those who disregard the normal rules when listening alone.

...While the C8C provides a flatter anechoic response in general, especially after the firmware update to V1.1 (which is not yet released @AsciLab?). However, if you then apply room-EQ the audible differences in the horizontal plane will be a lot smaller (probably near zero) than to what you'd expect from reading these graphs alone; without taking your own room's acoustics into consideration.

I recommend not to apply room correction to "optimize" the room curve.

As Floyd Toole states: The room curve is a result from the combination of loudspeaker and room not a target (despite the bass, lets say below 200-300Hz). Toole also shows in his book that a flat on axis amplitude curve is preferred over an "optimized" room curve by most listeners.

 

[829]

I agree that room-EQ has to be applied wisely. Especially when it comes to boosting nulls; that should be limited or maybe even avoided completely.

But judging from both the estimated in-room responses, which look excellent for the LS60 as well as C8C, there wouldn't be any necessity to "bend" the actual in-room response towards any specific target anyways. Unless for personal preference.


[Addition]

Just for clarification, there are scenarios where optimizing towards a target curve is beneficial. For example to follow a standard like the Dolby Atmos music curve, which can certainly also be applied to a stereo-only system, to perceive an accurate translation of concerning productions into the home listening environment.

Likewise, abnormally reflecting|absorbing rooms could require some fine-tuning over the entire frequency range. (Though proper placement and room acoustic treatment remain the primary tools.)

As initially stated one should be careful with boosting nulls, which auto-correction solutions generally overdo. See this excellent explanation.

 

[Scrutable]

Re the button on the back: The switch is poorly labeled by Hypex as some have mentioned above. It is really a DSP preset selection switch.

Re room correction: I found with the speakers near a wall (mine are about 1’) I got increased low bass, especially using the low latency preset #1. Room correction, even the basic auto RoomFit in WiiM, improved it for me by a mile. I definitely recommend trying it if you have any doubts or the sound seems in any way bad.

 

[829]

I agree that room-EQ has to be applied wisely. Especially when it comes to boosting nulls; that should be limited or maybe even avoided completely.

But judging from both the estimated in-room responses, which look excellent for the LS60 as well as C8C, there wouldn't be any necessity to "bend" the actual in-room response towards any specific target anyways. Unless for personal preference.


[Addition]

Just for clarification, there are scenarios where optimizing towards a target curve is beneficial. For example to follow a standard like the Dolby Atmos music curve, which can certainly also be applied to a stereo-only system, to perceive an accurate translation of concerning productions into the home listening environment.

Likewise, abnormally reflecting|absorbing rooms could require some fine-tuning over the entire frequency range. (Though proper placement and room acoustic treatment remain the primary tools.)

As initially stated one should be careful with boosting nulls, which auto-correction solutions generally overdo. See this excellent explanation.

[#2]

Whether a towards the HF range flat in-room frequency response would be more or less preferred, also depends on the age of the listeners. For younger people with intact hearing (no noise-induced hearing loss etc.), listening at a towards the HF region flat in-room response will likely sound too bright and be fatiguing in the long run. Whereas for the older generations, due to presbycusis (age-related HF hearing loss) the sensation might be pleasing.

Does Dr. Toole state the nature of the test subjects in his book, i.e., how many trained / untrained listeners with or without musical background and at which ages?

 

[markstein]

Does Dr. Toole state the nature of the test subjects in his book, i.e., how many trained / untrained listeners with or without musical background and at which ages?

As far as I remember, test persons were tested for an intact hearing and untrained listeniners tended to like more bass and treble (smiling curve) than trained listeners. Musicians were not better suited for listening tests than non musicians.

 

[cEbNVDyfMy]

These look great, particularly with the bass extension module.

I currently have the Dutch & Dutch 8c. In my bedroom, they are near perfect. In my living room, which is rather large, they cannot produce enough bass to fill the room. I don't see this as a fault of the 8cs, the room is very large. What I need is a Dutch & Dutch bass module similar to the asciilab bass module. Should I sell the D&D 8cs for the Asciilabs featured here...or maybe wait of for the purifi driver versions?

 

[Purité Audio]

The S8C ( all Purfii version of the C8C) is on the drawing board but I believe still some way off.
8Cs have pretty decent bass response, when you say’ ‘cannot produce enough bass’ you mean in terms of level, not loud enough?
Keith

 

[Coltr@ne]

If I may say so, having them, I was positively surprised by the c8c, especially in the extension of the low end and in the level that can be obtained, much more than the Proac EBS that I have owned for 40 years, so much so that it made me wonder if I didn't make a mistake in choosing the bass module.

 

[markstein]

If I may say so, having them, I was positively surprised by the c8c, especially in the extension of the low end and in the level that can be obtained, much more than the Proac EBS that I have owned for 40 years, so much so that it made me wonder if I didn't make a mistake in choosing the low end.

Same here.

C8C bass extension goes down to 20Hz in my setup and - despite not being cardioid - shows very little SBIR and is also more consistent across several listening positions (left-rigjt) on my sofa. Indeed better than I achieved with my 2 sub setup and MSO.
Maybe this is due to the position of the woofers on the side?

 

[829]

[...] Should I sell the D&D 8cs for the Asciilabs featured here...or maybe wait of for the purifi driver versions?

Frankly speaking, I am also more on the preference side like amirm when it comes to headroom in the low frequencies. My dream speakers therefore would be the JBL M2 but they are out of my reach, as will the S6C + BX10C be.

So for me personally, the Dutch & Dutch 8C would not do for far-field listening but Erin described them in his review like this:

Speaking of distortion, yes, the measured harmonic distortion is relatively high. But, in my listening tests I had this speaker playing as high as 105dB @ 4 meters with no audible distortion other than the things that were buzzing in my living room. I even used test tones to see if I could hear the distortion in my MLP but, alas, the fireplace was vibrating as were some of the items in the bookshelves. Not to mention room modes. I’m not saying that someone else couldn’t hear the distortion if trying. But in my case, in a real living room with other things about, the distortion measured didn’t correlate to distortion heard if for no other reason than it was masked by all the things that make a real room a room. [...]

All is relative, I guess. But if unsure, just get the C8C + BX8C when available and be happy. And make sure your sensation of "they cannot produce enough bass to fill the room" is not owed to improper placement and room modal issues at your listening positions, else not much will change if they remain untreated!

[...]
Maybe this is due to the position of the woofers on the side?

Very unlikely. Bass waves naturally propagate spherically up until roughly 100 Hz and it does not matter in which direction the woofers are oriented. So (opposite) force cancellation is the biggest mechanical advantage here (not considering cardioid patterns, lobing errors with other drivers etc.).

But what really matters is the position of the (also if used, sub-)woofers in your room and relative to the main loudspeakers. Generally it is much easier to achieve better results with full-range loudspeakers like the C8C, which emit all frequencies from the same relative positions in space. Proper subwoofer integration is a pain in the a** and one always needs to start by finding the best spots in the personal listening environment. Very rarely the positions where subwoofers end up being placed, actually correspond to the acoustically most beneficial locations (available free space, interior design, visual preferences etc. limit the options).

 

[markstein]

Very unlikely. Bass waves naturally propagate spherically up until roughly 100 Hz and it does not matter in which direction the woofers are oriented. So (opposite) force cancellation is the biggest mechanical advantage here (not considering cardioid patterns, lobing errors with other drivers etc.).

Due to the side position the distance driver-wall can be smaller, at least shifting SBIR to higher frequencies. Otherwise I agree.

But what really matters is the position of the (also if used, sub-)woofers in your room and relative to the main loudspeakers. Generally it is much easier to achieve better results with full-range loudspeakers like the C8C, which emit all frequencies from the same relative positions in space. Proper subwoofer integration is a pain in the a** and one always needs to start by finding the best spots in the personal listening environment. Very rarely the positions where subwoofers end up being placed, actually correspond to the acoustically most beneficial locations (available free space, interior design, visual preferences etc. limit the options).

True. MSO (multi subwoofer optimizer) makes your life much easier, however, with only two subs the optimization result is limited. Three or four subs would provide better results.

 

[AudioJester]

If I may say so, having them, I was positively surprised by the c8c, especially in the extension of the low end and in the level that can be obtained, much more than the Proac EBS that I have owned for 40 years, so much so that it made me wonder if I didn't make a mistake in choosing the bass module.

Yeah, I have been wondering about the need/use of BX8C since I got ny C8C. Actually the more I listen the more I wonder, the C8C bass is allready extraordinary!
Still, will never know till I try, and there are supposed to be midrange advantages as well, as the whole set up of the C8C changes with the BX8C.
Its an itch that needs scratching, but i do wonder if a S6B in another room would have been a better choice over BX8C. May end up doing that anyway

 

[traind]

This may have been asked, but I couldn't see it in thread...how would these compare to the kef ls60?

I have not owned the LS60s but I did listen to them in my search at an Audio store. In that location, the bass was fine but not what I would call impressive. The room was pretty large and they were not too close to the front wall though. I have the C8Cs in a mid size room near the front wall and the base is impressive. It compares favorably to Martin Logan XT F100 tower speakers I have in another room. The ML vs Ascilabs comparison is not exact being in different rooms but room size is similar and placement to front wall is similar too... and the C8Cs are a very clear win on bass to my ears. It's surprising given the size although the C8Cs are a large "bookshelf" speaker. Not many bookshelves could hold them lol.

 

[kharan]

I have not owned the LS60s but I did listen to them in my search at an Audio store. In that location, the bass was fine but not what I would call impressive. The room was pretty large and they were not too close to the front wall though. I have the C8Cs in a mid size room near the front wall and the base is impressive. It compares favorably to Martin Logan XT F100 tower speakers I have in another room. The ML vs Ascilabs comparison is not exact being in different rooms but room size is similar and placement to front wall is similar too... and the C8Cs are a very clear win on bass to my ears. It's surprising given the size although the C8Cs are a large "bookshelf" speaker. Not many bookshelves could hold them lol.

50 L is not a small speaker, it's roughly the volume of a tall and thin floorstander like the Buchardt A700 LE, it's even slightly larger. The Dutch and Dutch 8C is also roughly that size, albeit a little larger. The Kii Three on the other hand is a fair bit smaller while remaining on the larger side for a bookshelf.

I have been impressed by the bass extension and SPL capabilities too. In my room, it's flat down to 20 Hz at 2 m. I'm waiting for a longer USB cable to check at my listening position. Maybe I'll be disappointed because I'll lose the room mode which creates that flat response, who knows.

 

[Coltr@ne]

@AsciLab, do your C8C measurements refer to the midrange shields installed or not? Would there be any measurable differences? Thanks