AsCi Labs @ Purité Audio

[AsciLab]

12"+15" in the W371. It's possible to argue about sonic properties of 15 vs 10 inch. I've owned 4x10" speakers, and I prefer 2x12" even. (Different designs, so not comparable in actuality.)

It has to be compared total effective volume, Sd x Xmax. Not only inch.
For W371A, AFAIK they use B&C driver. 14” and 12” (though I don’t know they are customized). Both of them are measured by Voicecoil magazine.

Test Bench: B&C Speakers 14NA100-8 14” Pro Sound Woofer

This Test Bench focuses on the 14NA100-8, a new high power handling 14” pro sound woofer from B&C Speakers. This is the highest power handling in the brand's 14” group with a continuous power handling rating of 1.6 kW (800 W nominal). Applications range from two- and three-way PA speakers and...

audioxpress.com

Test Bench: A 12-Inch NBR Pro Sound woofer from B&C Speakers

In this Test Bench I characterized the 12BG76-8, a high power handling 12” NBR pro sound woofer from B&C Speakers. This month’s sample submission is in the upper range of power handling in this extensive group with a continuous power handling rating of 1000 W (500 W nominal). Applications range...

audioxpress.com

For front woofer it has about 6200cm^3 excursion volume. And the rear woofer has about 5000cm^3.

For PTT10.0X, it has about 5300cm^3 excursion volume and even with better (x) curve. Well not just better, the best.

And we use 4 drivers in a single speaker.
Then it will be more than 21,000cm^3 total effective volume.

I know all these math can’t be the only parameter to justify the sound quality, But also I know it is undeniable factor.

With superb cardioid pattern, I can’t imagine better ideal option to compete to this structure as stereo system. Someone can say multiple subwoofers, but Multiple subwoofers are not the topic for now.

 

[AsciLab]

@AsciLab Job well done on your designs, truly excellent. I think my earlier point is being lost in all the discussion on price of your designs (my fault for maybe not being more clear) … why would you use such an expensive driver such as the Purifi 10” when there is no audible performance difference between it and a comparable SB acoustics 10”, for example? No doubt the Purifi is a superb design, but so is a DAC with 130 SINAD, but you won’t hear the difference between that and -80 SINAD. Not to compare drivers to DACs per se, but I think you get my point. I am not questioning the selling price, again sounds just about right (and maybe even low!) when using Purifi, asking rather if audible difference of Purifi 10” vs another well engineered 10”. Thanks and congrats, exciting times for ASCI!

Of course Purifi drivers are so expensive drivers. But also they are the only drivers that overcome most of handicap as being moving coil system. Especially their eliminated force factor modulation can’t be seen in the other 4 layer VC driver. It is only possible to get by their improved motor design.

Some of 4L VC driver has somewhat dirty sound in bass frequency. There are many of reason but the force factor modulation is the big thing to make the sound messy.

All the Purifi drivers overcome fundamentally this issue. Yes I’m praising Purifi. They deserve it. Purifi driver options can be the option for someone who desiring “most distortion free system”.

 

[MKR]

Of course Purifi drivers are so expensive drivers. But also they are the only drivers that overcome most of handicap as being moving coil system. Especially their eliminated force factor modulation can’t be seen in the other 4 layer VC driver. It is only possible to get by their improved motor design.

Some of 4L VC driver has somewhat dirty sound in bass frequency. There are many of reason but the force factor modulation is the big thing to make the sound messy.

All the Purifi drivers overcome fundamentally this issue. Yes I’m praising Purifi. They deserve it. Purifi driver options can be the option for someone who desiring “most distortion free system”.

Thanks and sure, understand and agree with all of this. But once again, is this lower distortion performance audible, all else being equal using the premium SB 10”? I would say no, but happy to be proven wrong.

 

[AsciLab]

Thanks and sure, understand and agree with all of this. But once again, is this lower distortion performance audible, all else being equal using the premium SB 10”? I would say no, but happy to be proven wrong.

The driver you say SB 10” is the shallow subwoofer?

 

[Sokel]

Thanks and sure, understand and agree with all of this. But once again, is this lower distortion performance audible, all else being equal using the premium SB 10”? I would say no, but happy to be proven wrong.

Best 10" I have heard are either the know Scan-Speak ones (more cost effective) or the Audio-Technology Flex (the ones with the 4" VC can push seriously) for more expensive builds (I believe they are about 800-900 EUR)

Haven't heard the Purifi's yet ,their VC is comparable to the cheaper Scan-Speak though (2") so they would be at least decent and they have the advantage of higher low distortion range than Pro drivers with bigger VCs for example, which is a serious advantage.

Edit: as a reminder that sometimes you get what you pay for, here's a comparison from Troels measurements:

Raw drivers of course, but look at the A-D's flex beauty, even for the shake of visuals.

I expect Purifi to be even better at some aspects.

 

[dagfinn]

It has to be compared total effective volume, Sd x Xmax. Not only inch.

Technically, mathematically I'm sure you're right. What the result is "in room", is again a matter of opinion. I mainly compared your TOL to similarly priced Genelec systems, but we can talk about design too. For me as user, I am partial to bigger woofers. I've compared many sizes in realtime ABCD setup, so I know what I like and what the different sizes usually brings. I'm not denying the quality of Purify, or the measurements you have provided. But what is the actual SPL level we work/listen at, and what is the advantage of Purify then? I see @MKR has the same question.

In my room I never get close to max SPL available, I listen at 80-90dB, depending on type of music/instruments. I'm not controlled by the number, but the natural loudest instrument. Occasionally I go a bit louder, but not much for long.

This reminds me of the cast aluminium vs stamped steel. It's in the end result, not the material or production method, or even indiviual part. As a user, I'd rather have the Genelec B&C 15" and GLM, then the mathematically greatest 10" drivers without GLM.

With superb cardioid pattern, I can’t imagine better ideal option to compete to this structure as stereo system. Someone can say multiple subwoofers, but Multiple subwoofers are not the topic for now.

I'm not a fan of too many subs either, I'd rather limit them to stereo. Cardiod is after all just a high degree of directionality, once you release the sound into the room, the room becomes part of the speaker. With high directionalty, less so initally, but you will hit walls sooner or later, and then the quality of the room will matter more than the quality of the driver. Sure, sit in the sweet spot where sound is dominated by speaker, and you'll be good, and probably better off in a reflective room with cardiod. But when the room is interacting, you need to deal with it. Either by improving the room, or use DSP correction. I'd always fix the room as much as possible first, and then add EQ if needed.

And then we have to ask about coaxials, do they have an advantage? Do they image better?

A final factor for me is that a lot of the music I listen to is tracked and mixed on Genelec, and it pleases me to hear something very close to the what was heard in the mix.

 

[Sokel]

A final factor for me is that a lot of the music I listen to is tracked and mixed on Genelec, and it pleases me to hear something very close to the what was heard in the mix.

I hope that not a global reason of choosing as I would have to get B&W's for my classical, which the new lines are what I can't stand, elevated treble that causes me a round headache.

 

[AsciLab]

Technically, mathematically I'm sure you're right. What the result is "in room", is again a matter of opinion. I mainly compared your TOL to similarly priced Genelec systems, but we can talk about design too. For me as user, I am partial to bigger woofers. I've compared many sizes in realtime ABCD setup, so I know what I like and what the different sizes usually brings. I'm not denying the quality of Purify, or the measurements you have provided. But what is the actual SPL level we work/listen at, and what is the advantage of Purify then? I see @MKR has the same question.

In my room I never get close to max SPL available, I listen at 80-90dB, depending on type of music/instruments. I'm not controlled by the number, but the natural loudest instrument. Occasionally I go a bit louder, but not much for long.

This reminds me of the cast aluminium vs stamped steel. It's in the end result, not the material or production method, or even indiviual part. As a user, I'd rather have the Genelec B&C 15" and GLM, then the mathematically greatest 10" drivers without GLM.


I'm not a fan of too many subs either, I'd rather limit them to stereo. Cardiod is after all just a high degree of directionality, once you release the sound into the room, the room becomes part of the speaker. With high directionalty, less so initally, but you will hit walls sooner or later, and then the quality of the room will matter more than the quality of the driver. Sure, sit in the sweet spot where sound is dominated by speaker, and you'll be good, and probably better off in a reflective room with cardiod. But when the room is interacting, you need to deal with it. Either by improving the room, or use DSP correction. I'd always fix the room as much as possible first, and then add EQ if needed.

And then we have to ask about coaxials, do they have an advantage? Do they image better?

A final factor for me is that a lot of the music I listen to is tracked and mixed on Genelec, and it pleases me to hear something very close to the what was heard in the mix.

That was the answer about yout 10" vs 15"(actually 14") comparison. In similar Q and Fs, multiple drivers can be regarded as larger Sd, same SPL with less excursion. This can result more linear excursion=less distortion. And I don't know why our conversation is going to "with GLM" option. Aren't we talking about woofer capability?

GLM is great. I agreed. And it is an additional option that can be replaced by the other Room correction service. GLM is not one and only option. As I already said above there are many of optiosn to use auto room correction. MiniDSP, Dirac, WiiM, etc.

 

[AsciLab]

I'm not a fan of too many subs either, I'd rather limit them to stereo. Cardiod is after all just a high degree of directionality, once you release the sound into the room, the room becomes part of the speaker. With high directionalty, less so initally, but you will hit walls sooner or later, and then the quality of the room will matter more than the quality of the driver. Sure, sit in the sweet spot where sound is dominated by speaker, and you'll be good, and probably better off in a reflective room with cardiod. But when the room is interacting, you need to deal with it. Either by improving the room, or use DSP correction. I'd always fix the room as much as possible first, and then add EQ if needed.

Room acoustics treatment and correction are always needed. Yes. Even with cardioid pattern, without perfect room acoustics EQ is needed to tame the in room response.
But decent cardioid is not just narrow directivity. This feature can result less dip, less phase error, less spreaded image. Initial reflections are the most important things to handle.
Well designed cardioid pattern helps a lot for room acoustics that's why there is W371A too.

 

[AsciLab]

And then we have to ask about coaxials, do they have an advantage? Do they image better?

Coaxial's best Pros is no lobbing error. And also there are so many advantages. Smaller size, waveguide feature when the midrange is cone shape. But also there are many of disadvantages too. Midrange Sd is decreased. Much more IMD when the coaxial is 2way, tweeter diffraction by the gap between two drivers. Hard to design the midrange as good cone and also good waveguide shape.

BUT, Genelec does perfect all the things about that. We have to talk about Genelec's Coaxial. Not just Coaxial.
So, Yes, the One series is most close to perfect about speaker design as I think. Their imaging is superb. Personally 8351B was the best speaker ever before I design speaker myself. So I design our speaker like as Genelec's perfection. Low distortion, great directivity(this is the most important thing about imaging), good looking, etc. Our previous A6B performance is quite similar with 8351B. And now we go further more with cardioid, Genelec does not yet(only for W371A and 8381A, not for their bookshelf speakers).
Extended well controlled directivity down to 100Hz makes magic. It can't be comparable with non-cardioid speaker. When you have a chance to listen it, you will be surprised. I'm sure.

 

[dagfinn]

That was the answer about yout 10" vs 15"(actually 14") comparison. In similar Q and Fs, multiple drivers can be regarded as larger Sd, same SPL with less excursion. This can result more linear excursion=less distortion. And I don't know why our conversation is going to "with GLM" option. Aren't we talking about woofer capability?

I was talking about the complete package, what it delivers and not. In my opinion, and since I'm not an engineer, so there's a limit to how technical I can be. But if you set up coaxial, vs waveguide vs flush mounted flat baffle, there will be major differences, but the waveguide and the coaxial will be most similar. I know from direct comparison.

About 15" vs 10" let me direct you to a different answer. In 1978 Richard C. Heyser wrote "Hearing vs. Measurements".
Perhaps it will illuminate my position.

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1978-03.pdf#page=45

If you don't know Richard C. Heyser, here's a bio.

Richard C. Heyser Memorial Lectures

The Richard C. Heyser Memorial Lecture series was established in May 1999 by the AES Technical Council, the Board of Governors, and the Richard Heyser Scholarship Fund to honor the extensive contribution to the Society by this outstanding man, widely known for his ability to communicate new and...

www.aes.org

 

[kharan]

@Purité Audio You only cover UK I think, right?

@AsciLab Do you have a distributor for France yet? Or are you planning for direct sale?
I personally like www.audiophonics.fr, they cover Europe too, and they already sell their own fully built Purifi and Hypex amplifiers and Hypex plate amps as well.

Extra question, does the Hypex plate amp support multiple profiles? It would be interesting to have a cardioid profile with lower max SPL and a non cardioid profile with higher SPL on the cardioid capable models, it depends on how the customer's room is set up.

 

[BeeKay]

@Purité Audio You only cover UK I think, right?

@AsciLab Do you have a distributor for France yet? Or are you planning for direct sale?
I personally like www.audiophonics.fr, they cover Europe too, and they already sell their own fully built Purifi and Hypex amplifiers and Hypex plate amps as well.

Would be great to see a distributor like Audiophonics to cover the EU. England, unfortunately isn’t fully ideal for the rest of us here. As much I’d like the buy from Purité Audio.

 

[Esprit]

Also, there is a lot room correction products in market MiniDSP, Dirac, WiiM, etc.

The room correction stored internally by the speakers allows you to use any source, even the simple TV output.
I think you are creating great products but this continuous "upgrading" is not for me: the day I had problems would I be able to find replacement parts?

 

[Purité Audio]

Who is continually upgrading, Purifi released a new tweeter design which in the eyes of the designer was worth incorporating into a loudspeaker design.
What’s not to like?
Keith

 

[MKR]

Best 10" I have heard are either the know Scan-Speak ones (more cost effective) or the Audio-Technology Flex (the ones with the 4" VC can push seriously) for more expensive builds (I believe they are about 800-900 EUR)

Haven't heard the Purifi's yet ,their VC is comparable to the cheaper Scan-Speak though (2") so they would be at least decent and they have the advantage of higher low distortion range than Pro drivers with bigger VCs for example, which is a serious advantage.

Edit: as a reminder that sometimes you get what you pay for, here's a comparison from Troels measurements:


View attachment 437169

Raw drivers of course, but look at the A-D's flex beauty, even for the shake of visuals.

I expect Purifi to be even better at some aspects.

I don’t disagree the Purifi is good, but do the specs on paper translate to audible differences vs the lower cost SBAs (or even Dayton!)? I doubt it

 

[Esprit]

What’s not to like?

It seems to me that there are too many products that have come out of nowhere.
Honestly, if I have to, if I want to, spend €5,000 to €10,000 for a pair of speakers, I choose a product that has been on the market for a long time, that is reliable and that has a national distributor who takes care of the assistance.
I wish them all the best because their passion for the products they make is evident, and to you to sell hundreds of pairs for the English market.

 

[Purité Audio]

All manufacturers were ‘new’ at some point , reliability is established over many years, I am certain Ascilab are right now considering their retail model, establishing a network takes time particularly if you take time to choose really suitable retailers who share the same ethos.
Personally when I look for products I start with exemplary engineering.
Keith

 

[MKR]

The driver you say SB 10” is the shallow subwoofer?

Wasn’t trying to be too specific, making a more generic point … but sure, pick the most comparable SB 10” to Purifi 10” and all speaker design aspects being equal, convince me there is an audible difference

 

[Esprit]

All manufacturers were ‘new’ at some point

You are right but I do not like to risk and, for the reasons you know, I cannot buy from you.
I have had problems in the past with Adam monitors and Adam Audio sent me a pallet (I had 8 speakers at home at the same time and I only needed one perfect pair) by air from Germany (at their expense).
My best wishes to them and to you are sincere but I am too old to accept not having a distributor (assistance) here in Italy.
Good evening