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Ascend Acoustics Horizon Center Speaker Review

edechamps

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Sorry, the center channel was INTENDED in the 5.1 specification for dialog. It doesn't mean it is always used correctly.

My understanding is that the center channel is intended for whatever sound is meant to be localized near the center, no matter what kind of sound it is.

Please clarify which "5.1 specification" you're referring to. The standard for 5.1 broadcast is ITU-R BS.775 which as far as I can tell does not mention anything about the center channel being "intended" for dialog.
 

thewas

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It could have to do with the impulse response of the tweeter. The ribbon is going to be much more responsive than your typical dome tweeter. We don't talk about the effect that impulse response plays on sound much here.

Revel and others haven't been blowing money designing and implementing Beryllium tweeters in their products for no reason.
Impulse response same like step response are just a different (incomplete) representation of the complex (amplitude and phase) frequency response which are just usually harder for us humans to read. A more "sharp" impulse response for example just means higher bandwidth, thus higher upper limit dropping frequency which usually doesn't play a practical role (except for marketing) if its 30 or 50 kHz. Beryllium has rather other advantages like excellent stiffness and damping ratios plus the marketing advantage of high price of "unobtainium" like diamond and other "boutique" driver materials.
 

Dmitri

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The biggest problem with dialog intelligibility is usually in the movie recording/mixing. So many other sounds are competing with the voices (background music, effects, etc.). For a speaker, one with wide directivity is good but probably the easiest fix is to turn up the level for the center channel a bit.
I’ve always had difficulty with my center channel. I have tended to blame my hearing, so to have Amir suggest that the “recording/mixing” is the main culprit is somewhat comforting...at least it helps me live in denial for a while longer.

Ultimately I find if I raise the center a couple of db. and reduce the fronts and rears similarly, it usually works fairly well. Adding treble to the mix can also help, but by the time I’ve done all that I feel like a trip to the audiologist is in order.

My question...is investing in a higher end center channel going to make enough difference in the dialogue that it’s a worthwhile investment? Short of a few multichannel sacd’s and some 5.1 channel mixes I almost always listen to music in stereo only. My current center is a Vandersteen VCC 1. The VCC 2 design is a wall mount and tuned accordingly, which won’t work for me. The top end center, the VCC 5 is a lot more than I care to spend, but as I have an all Vandersteen system, I’m concerned about “timber matching” my set up with a non Vandersteen center channel. Is this really that big an issue? I have an Anthem MRX 510 receiver with ARC room eq. Does that allow for more flexibility in my center channel options?

Sorry if this falls outside of this thread’s focus. If there is another location best for this question, let me know, and I’ll post there.
 

Shazb0t

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Impulse response same like step response are just a different (incomplete) representation of the complex (amplitude and phase) frequency response which are just usually harder for us humans to read. A more "sharp" impulse response for example just means higher bandwidth, thus higher upper limit dropping frequency which usually doesn't play a practical role (except for marketing) if its 30 or 50 kHz. Beryllium has rather other advantages like excellent stiffness and damping ratios plus the marketing advantage of high price of "unobtainium" like diamond and other "boutique" driver materials.
What does the added stiffness and damping ratio of Beryllium in the new F228be bring over the aluminium dome in the F208? What physical characteristic do you think the engineering team at Revel are trying to achieve? Genuinely curious.
 

aarons915

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What does the added stiffness and damping ratio of Beryllium in the new F228be bring over the aluminium dome in the F208? What physical characteristic do you think the engineering team at Revel are trying to achieve? Genuinely curious.

Not Thewas but the Be tweeter can be crossed over lower and has breakup modes higher than Aluminum, those are the 2 main Engineering reasons for choosing Be. You'll also note that people who haven't been told about a ribbons magical massless qualities, never seem to mention any kind of quality about the tweeter that can't be shown in traditional measurements.
 

Beave

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I wonder why, given the size of the baffle, Ascend didn't choose to use larger woofers and/or space them much closer together. Wouldn't closer spacing improve off axis response? Perhaps the woofers are crossed low enough that lobing/comb filtering/whatever is not an issue?

The woofer-to-midrange crossover is pretty low, minimizing the lobing, but the crossovers are shallow slopes, so there are still some off axis cancellations.

The reasons for not using larger woofers or spacing them closer together?
1. These woofers are the same as those used on the Sierra towers, and they're also very similar (but not identical) to the woofers used on the Sierra 1 bookshelf speaker. It's a woofer that the designer is very familiar with. It also keeps things simple in terms of inventory to use the same (or similar) parts across different speakers. And it probably helps with reduced cost by buying more in bulk.
2. The midrange is in its own sealed enclosure, which is quite large and fills up the middle portion of the speaker. That means there's no room inside the cabinet for the woofers to be moved inward toward the center.
 

Racheski

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My understanding is that the center channel is intended for whatever sound is meant to be localized near the center, no matter what kind of sound it is.

Please clarify which "5.1 specification" you're referring to. The standard for 5.1 broadcast is ITU-R BS.775 which as far as I can tell does not mention anything about the center channel being "intended" for dialog.
Interesting. Is the center channel is for dialogue myth something that is perpetuated by audio salesman? Even I have been told that at some point by multiple people.
 

Beave

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Not Thewas but the Be tweeter can be crossed over lower and has breakup modes higher than Aluminum, those are the 2 main Engineering reasons for choosing Be. You'll also note that people who haven't been told about a ribbons magical massless qualities, never seem to mention any kind of quality about the tweeter that can't be shown in traditional measurements.

The beryllium dome does lead to breakup modes being higher in frequency, but are you sure that it also allows the tweeter to be crossed-over lower in frequency? I don't see how that is related to dome material.
 

Beave

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I'm a little surprised by some of the details in these measurements. The worst region seems to be about 500Hz to 1500Hz, which is where the dedicated midrange driver is working. The bass looks clean, the bass to mid transition/crossover looks good, the midrange is ragged, then the midrange to treble crossover looks good, then the treble looks good. I expected a smoother response in the mids due to the dedicated driver.

As a side note, the data sheet for the midrange driver used in this speaker shows a bump/wiggle in its impedance at just over 1kHz. I wondered if that would show up as a resonance in the driver output at that frequency. It doesn't. But it does show up as increased distortion in that region, plus it's very visible in the impedance plots of the overall speaker.
 

Bear123

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Interesting. Is the center channel is for dialogue myth something that is perpetuated by audio salesman? Even I have been told that at some point by multiple people.

No, its really a silly argument of semantics. The center channel is designed to play all sounds coming from the center channel. Its also true that almost all dialogue comes from the center channel. Maybe if someone is hell bent on winning an argument on the internet, could claim the center channel is not designed to play dialogue, by saying it is designed to play all sounds sent to the center. Whatever.
 

MZKM

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They aren't anything like that Peerless woofer. They're custom parts, partly made by Tang Band and partly made by somebody else.
Source?
”custom” usually means some changes, they usually don’t just make a new woofer only for an ID brand, and I don’t see any of their 5 1/4 drivers which match.

I did just double check, and the Peerless uses aluminum shorting rings and not copper, but other than that the keywords and the looks match.
 

aarons915

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The beryllium dome does lead to breakup modes being higher in frequency, but are you sure that it also allows the tweeter to be crossed-over lower in frequency? I don't see how that is related to dome material.

At least in the Revel Be line the M126 is crossed over at 1700Hz, I assume that is because it has lower distortion at its lower range that allows that but I'm not 100% sure why.
 

Ricardojoa

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”custom” usually means some changes, they usually don’t just make a new woofer only for an ID brand, and I don’t see any of their 5 1/4 drivers which match.

I did just double check, and the Peerless uses aluminum shorting rings and not copper, but other than that the keywords and the looks match.
They look nothing like the peerless woofer.
It is a tangbang woofer, similar to the ones used in the sierra1.
 

Beave

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”custom” usually means some changes, they usually don’t just make a new woofer only for an ID brand, and I don’t see any of their 5 1/4 drivers which match.

I did just double check, and the Peerless uses aluminum shorting rings and not copper, but other than that the keywords and the looks match.

Source is Ascend Acoustics.

True, they don't 'usually' make a new woofer for an ID brand, but Tang Band, Seas, and RAAL have all made drivers just for Ascend. So the 'usually' caveat doesn't apply here.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1tech.html

Audioholics Review of Ascend Sierra 1 with pics of woofer
 

Beave

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At least in the Revel Be line the M126 is crossed over at 1700Hz, I assume that is because it has lower distortion at its lower range that allows that but I'm not 100% sure why.

Yes, the Revel Be tweeter can be and is crossed over lower than the F206/208/M105/M106 tweeter, but I don't think that is because of the tweeter dome material. I think it's the improved tweeter motor that makes for the lower Fs which then allows for the lower crossover.
 

MZKM

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They look nothing like the peerless woofer.
It is a tangbang woofer, similar to the ones used in the sierra1.
I didn’t see the rear of the woofer till just now, but just looking at the cone, they look very similar besides the frame:
1597033079991.jpeg

1597033101279.jpeg

And they both state being poly woofers with shorting rings for low inductance and cast aluminum baskets with vented spiders.

Whereas I don’t see any Tang Band woofer that it could be based off of. So, it would be a fully custom woofer just for them, which is rare.

And the only mention I could find of Tang Band is from @Beave from a forum post in 2018.
So sue me :p
 
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restorer-john

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No, its really a silly argument of semantics. The center channel is designed to play all sounds coming from the center channel. Its also true that almost all dialogue comes from the center channel. Maybe if someone is hell bent on winning an argument on the internet, could claim the center channel is not designed to play dialogue, by saying it is designed to play all sounds sent to the center. Whatever.

The surround original centre channels used analog steering logic and were for anchoring dialog onto the screen. To my knowledge, they were also bandwidth limited (as were surrounds) with a 7KHz LPF. By the time we got discrete digital 5/5.1, the bandwidth limit for centres was adjusted and now I think full bandwidth audio can go anywhere.
 

Beave

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I didn’t see the rear of the woofer till just now, but just looking at the cone, they look very similar besides the frame:

And they both state being poly woofers with shorting rings for low inductance and cast aluminum baskets with vented spiders.

Whereas I don’t see any Tang Band woofer that it could be based off of. So, it would be a fully custom woofer just for them, which is rare.

And the only mention I could find of Tang Band is from @Beave from a forum post in 2018.
So sue me :p

Dave (of Ascend) doesn't want to say who supplies the woofer.

But if you do a Google image search of Tang Band woofers, you will find some of them that have cast baskets that look very much like the basket on this woofer.
 

Ricardojoa

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Dave (of Ascend) doesn't want to say who supplies the woofer.

But if you do a Google image search of Tang Band woofers, you will find some of them that have cast baskets that look very much like the basket on this woofer.
Exactly!
I remember seeing similar drivers long time ago (mid/woofer) offered on tangband webpage abut they were since taken down or not offer anymore.
 
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