Ascend Acoustics Announces New Klippel NFS-Optimized Sierra Towers and Horizon Center

[mj30250]

The low moving mass of the RAAL ribbons is seemingly an advantage on paper, but is it audible? I'm not sure. Toole theorizes not, but controlled testing in this area seems lacking. I think there may be something more to the essentially total lack of backwave radiation that's provided by the RAALs in particular.

In any case, it's likely not any one thing, but a combination of several factors all making some degree of contribution.

Relative to this topic, below are some very messy comparisons and impressions, some of which were not carefully done, so proceed at your own risk (ha).

I currently own and have compared the following speakers, all of which have been Klippel NFS-measured. These are my very brief impressions of their treble reproduction:

• Revel 226Be / Ascend Sierra LX (metallic domes): Both of these offer relatively wide horizontal and healthy amounts of vertical dispersion. To my ears, these produce similar sounding high frequencies, which I'd describe as detailed, reasonably textured, smooth, and non-fatiguing. Both take well to very high volume playback (at "reasonable" listening distances).
• Ascend Sierra 2EX V2: (custom ribbon based on RAAL 64-10): A bit wider in horizontal dispersion, much more limited vertically. Somewhat more "live" sounding and more textured with certain program material, similarly non-fatiguing but doesn't hold up quite as well during very high volume playback.
• Ascend Sierra ELX towers / Horizon (custom ribbon based on RAAL 70-20): Similarly wide in horizontal dispersion and limited in vertical. Noticeably more "live" sounding, textured, and detailed than even the smaller ribbon. Why? Perhaps the lower crossover puts more high-frequency fundamentals / harmonics into the ribbons' range, so whatever advantages can be ascribed to the their implementation covers more material. It is similarly non-fatiguing and can be pushed to higher volumes than the smaller ribbon without complaint.

 

[422415]

It seems intuitive to me that the "speed" of a driver is defined by its frequency response. Either it can reproduce 20K or it cannot.

If not dispersion, FR, and distortion, what do you think defines the sonic differences? The waterfall plot? I would be very interested in knowing more about how all of these factors coorelate with the perceived sound of high-frequency drivers.

Dave has talked about this before. Let me share some posts of his about this topic.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/raal-tweeters.3075988/page-5#post-58255462

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/raal-tweeters.3075988/page-6#post-58273298

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/raal-tweeters.3075988/page-10#post-58468688

 

[Multicore]

I've got to the end of the month to decide if we upgrade the Towers to ELX, after which the price goes up 10%. How to decide?

 

[422415]

The low moving mass of the RAAL ribbons is seemingly an advantage on paper, but is it audible? I'm not sure. Toole theorizes not, but controlled testing in this area seems lacking. I think there may be something more to the essentially total lack of backwave radiation that's provided by the RAALs in particular.

In any case, it's likely not any one thing, but a combination of several factors all making some degree of contribution.

Relative to this topic, below are some very messy comparisons and impressions, some of which were not carefully done, so proceed at your own risk (ha).

I currently own and have compared the following speakers, all of which have been Klippel NFS-measured. These are my very brief impressions of their treble reproduction:

• Revel 226Be / Ascend Sierra LX (metallic domes): Both of these offer relatively wide horizontal and healthy amounts of vertical dispersion. To my ears, these produce similar sounding high frequencies, which I'd describe as detailed, reasonably textured, smooth, and non-fatiguing. Both take well to very high volume playback (at "reasonable" listening distances).
• Ascend Sierra 2EX V2: (custom ribbon based on RAAL 64-10): A bit wider in horizontal dispersion, much more limited vertically. Somewhat more "live" sounding and more textured with certain program material, similarly non-fatiguing but doesn't hold up quite as well during very high volume playback.
• Ascend Sierra ELX towers / Horizon (custom ribbon based on RAAL 70-20): Similarly wide in horizontal dispersion and limited in vertical. Noticeably more "live" sounding, textured, and detailed than even the smaller ribbon. Why? Perhaps the lower crossover puts more high-frequency fundamentals / harmonics into the ribbons' range, so whatever advantages can be ascribed to the their implementation covers more material. It is similarly non-fatiguing and can be pushed to higher volumes than the smaller ribbon without complaint.

Dave also talks about the differences between the two RAAL tweeters which could explain the differences.

Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion? - Page 4

Ok, just thought I'd throw this out there...... Dave, just in case any Sierra-2EX owners suddenly wish to empty their wallets, would it be possible to simply replace the EX crossover and RAAL tweeter with the SEAS White Diamond tweeter and corresponding crossover, or is there more to it...

forum.ascendacoustics.com

 

[mj30250]

Dave also talks about the differences between the two RAAL tweeters which could explain the differences.

Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion? - Page 4

Ok, just thought I'd throw this out there...... Dave, just in case any Sierra-2EX owners suddenly wish to empty their wallets, would it be possible to simply replace the EX crossover and RAAL tweeter with the SEAS White Diamond tweeter and corresponding crossover, or is there more to it...

forum.ascendacoustics.com

Nice, I've read a lot on Ascend's forums but I don't think I've seen that particular write-up before. It seems to line up with my subjective impressions fairly well.

 

[PatentLawyer]

Dave has talked about this before. Let me share some posts of his about this topic.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/raal-tweeters.3075988/page-5#post-58255462

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/raal-tweeters.3075988/page-6#post-58273298

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/raal-tweeters.3075988/page-10#post-58468688

Thank you! I will check these out.

Edit: This was interesting reading. He seems to be alluding to the relevance of the waterfall by pointing to the start-stop-start behavior. I have always had an intuition that made me focus on the waterfall plot, so it's kind of gratifying to see that maybe I didn't waste my time.

 

[Lurrus]

Does anyone know what the Preference Score is for the ELX Ribbon Tower and the ELX Titan Tower?

 

[mj30250]

Does anyone know what the Preference Score is for the ELX Ribbon Tower and the ELX Titan Tower?

I believe the data would need to be sent to @pierre. If/when that happens they will show up here:

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

 

[MaxBuck]

If my KEF R11s were stolen by aliens, I'd certainly want to audition these fine speakers as replacements.

 

[pierre]

I believe the data would need to be sent to @pierre. If/when that happens they will show up here:

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

yes. I sent an email to Dave and he told me that measurements are not validated yet but when they are, he will send them to me.

 

[database]

So, with that done, what changed when I rolled in the dual 15” subs and crossed both sets of speakers at 80Hz? Well, sadly, the detailed notes that I took in a work notepad got lost in a pile of other work notepads, and I haven’t been able to locate them yet. I can share the following from memory:

There was very little change in preference / scoring between the two speakers for the more vocal / acoustic-centered tracks. For the heavier / more complex / more bass-heavy material, the Revels absolutely shrunk the gap in many cases, but, with one exception, never by more than 2 “levels” of scoring, and only moved ahead of the Sierras (with a preference of “very slight”) on one track, which was the Star Wars orchestral piece.

Just curious, did you experiment with different crossovers to the subwoofers with the ELX towers? In my room got the best results with the old towers crossed at 80 Hz. But in the same room the LX sounds better to me at 60 Hz rather than 80 Hz. FR is smooth with both 60 Hz and 80 Hz thanks to Dirac Live Bass Control, but running 60 Hz with the LX allows for the LX woofers to handle more of that "chest slam" region, which it does with more impact than my four Rythmik subs.

 

[PatentLawyer]

but running 60 Hz with the LX allows for the LX woofers to handle more of that "chest slam" region, which it does with more impact than my four Rythmik subs.

Wow, this is surprising, no? What do you attribute this to?

 

[mj30250]

Just curious, did you experiment with different crossovers to the subwoofers with the ELX towers? In my room got the best results with the old towers crossed at 80 Hz. But in the same room the LX sounds better to me at 60 Hz rather than 80 Hz. FR is smooth with both 60 Hz and 80 Hz thanks to Dirac Live Bass Control, but running 60 Hz with the LX allows for the LX woofers to handle more of that "chest slam" region, which it does with more impact than my four Rythmik subs.

I prefer 80Hz in my room. The ELX towers put out a ton of bass for their size, but two 15" subs integrated reasonably smoothly doesn't really make for a fair fight.

However, it is fun sometimes to run the ELXs full range and giggle at how well they can still shake the room.

 

[areinert]

I just got the Sierra-LX bookshelves and the bass is crazy for a 6” woofer. They have a huge xmax/excursion. I previously had some vintage JBL L36 with a 10” woofer and they seriously compete with those for bass and can shake the couch. No contest for midrange and treble clarity/smoothness. Very pleased. I can only imagine the towers.

 

[Kylo Ren Amamiya]

What do you think about the RAAL ELX Tower in a small 10.5’x10.5’x8’ room?

Music & HT. Spaced roughly 6.5 ft apart, 6 ft from MLP, 2 ft from side walls, 24”-31” from front wall, MLP 2 ft from rear wall. Is 6 ft distance from the ELX enough? Listening levels 85-90dB peaks.

 

[mj30250]

The 6 ft distance is fine, but your room is not only on the small side, it's nearly cube-shaped, which is not well suited to providing good sound. The ELXs might ultimately work out fine but you may want to plan / budget for room treatments. You might have an easier time putting LXs into that space.

 

[goldark]

While designing this speaker with the NFS, Dave found high correlation between how spacious a speaker sounds with how linear its DI is, combined with wide horizontal dispersion, but not too wide - see his comments below.

General thoughts was that the wider the horizontal dispersion the more spacious the speaker sounds and I agreed with this, up until the past year or so. With the highly advanced capabilities our NFS gives us, combined with a massive amount of direct customer feedback and live demo's - without any question, there is much more involved in achieving a spacious sound than horizontal dispersion width.

I am starting to see a direct correlation with "spaciousness" and the linearity of both the DI and ERDI, and not so much horizontal dispersion width. The measured DI and ERDI of the Sierra-2EXV2 is more linear with less disparities compared to the BMRV2, that is one of the advantages of a 2-way design compared to a 3-way.

I am also starting to see a correlation with lack of center imaging focus with having horizontal dispersion that is too wide. I don't know what the ideal horizontal dispersion width is (not yet at least

) but while I think wide is preferred, there is definitely a point where too wide is not good.

I'll give an example, we had 3 customers here today and we did some direct A/B comparisons between original ribbon towers and the new ELX ribbon towers. The ELX and originals have the same horizontal dispersion width, but both the DI and ERDI of the ELX is quite a bit more linear with less "kinks", and the ELX sound considerably more spacious.

It is the same with Sierra-2EX vs Sierra-2EX V2, both speakers have the same horizontal dispersion width, but the major improvements with the EXV2 was in achieving a more linear DI and ERDI, which is easy to see in the measurements. The EXV2 does sound more spacious than the original Sierra-2EX.

It is a very interesting study thus far. I enjoy being at the forefront of this emerging technology and I also enjoy freely sharing this info.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

While designing this speaker with the NFS, Dave found high correlation between how spacious a speaker sounds with how linear its DI is, combined with wide horizontal dispersion, but not too wide - see his comments below.

Dave and I agree on a lot of things, but not this. I've found the BMR's to have a more spacious sound than any other 2-way or 3-way I've heard, mainly because of the extremely broad dispersion of the BMR midrange. I think this was born out in the Phoenix Speaker Fest last August, where the BMR's outscored all of the competing 15 entries from its primary competition by a very wide margin. Still, I would very much like to hear the new Ascends. They certainly look good on paper.

 

[422415]

Dave and I agree on a lot of things, but not this. I've found the BMR's to have a more spacious sound than any other 2-way or 3-way I've heard, mainly because of the extremely broad dispersion of the BMR midrange. I think this was born out in the Phoenix Speaker Fest last August, where the BMR's outscored all of the competing 15 entries from its primary competition by a very wide margin. Still, I would very much like to hear the new Ascends. They certainly look good on paper.

New: Sierra-2EX V2!!! - Page 17

We are most pleased to announce the new V2 version of our Sierra-2EX! Taking full advantage of the most advanced loudspeaker R&D available today, we have developed a new crossover topology to best integrate the RAAL true ribbon tweeter with our EX woofer. From an objective standpoint...

forum.ascendacoustics.com

Here is the full post. The post above did not provide the whole thing.

 

[Ricardojoa]

Dave and I agree on a lot of things, but not this. I've found the BMR's to have a more spacious sound than any other 2-way or 3-way I've heard, mainly because of the extremely broad dispersion of the BMR midrange. I think this was born out in the Phoenix Speaker Fest last August, where the BMR's outscored all of the competing 15 entries from its primary competition by a very wide margin. Still, I would very much like to hear the new Ascends. They certainly look good on paper.

Hi Dennis, Base on ascend and erins measurements, both appear to have similar wide dispersion. Can you elaborate which part is wider on bmr?
Also, do you happen to know why there is roll off of high frequency on the bmr? Erins graph shows a roll off at the upper end.