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Ascend Acoustics Announces New Klippel NFS-Optimized Sierra Towers and Horizon Center

mj30250

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As of this moment they haven't publicly uploaded measurements, but I've been using the new towers since April (I upgraded them from the standard towers) and the new Horizon center (brand new) for a little over a week, both with RAAL tweeters. It's been hard to keep my big mouth shut over the past several months, but I am finally happy to share that these speakers are extraordinary, and I'll be providing detailed impressions as I get time over a busy work week.

 
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mj30250

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A few pictures from my tower upgrade...

Drivers and crossovers removed (the tweeter stayed in place):

Upgrade.png


Old versus new midrange and woofer:

Driver Compare 1.jpg


Driver Compare 2.jpg


New crossover in place:

Crossover.jpg


Don't worry, it was a cordial meeting:

R&A.jpg
 

goldark

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The discussion of the new crossover methodology is really intriguing to me. I'm wondering what differentiates it from typical crossovers. Dave's comments below.

The real key to this project is in the unique crossover topology that we have been working on and trying to perfect for over a decade now.

One of the problems with 3-way parallel crossovers is that there needs to be a very large capacitor in series with the midrange driver to form the high pass filter, which gently rolls off the lows. Such a large value series capacitor in series with the critical midrange driver causes some unavoidable issues. Amongst these are a large phase shift, distortion, and it also dampens dynamics. Then, to increase the high pass filter slope from 1st order to second order (12dB/octave) – you then must add the appropriate inductor in parallel after this capacitor. This then takes lows that should not reach the driver directly to ground.

To filter out the highs that are meant to go the tweeter, you then also add a low pass filter, (a series inductor with a parallel capacitor) – thus completing what is known as a bandpass filter for the midrange driver. The tweeter then uses a separate high pass filter while the woofer uses a low pass filter, and then these 3 filters are wired in parallel. This is the standard for crossover designs for 3-way speakers. It is a tried-and-true design, relatively simple to design and when done right, provides good results.

I have had an idea in my head for a different 3-way crossover topology for what must be 25 years now and we started work on this back when we first developed our towers. We made several samples, and the results were good, not great – and not better than the more simplistic and common crossover design we eventually went with.

With help from advanced computer modeling and hundreds of hours of NFS testing, we have finally been successful in developing this different crossover topology, that avoids the negatives of a large series capacitor as described previously while also routing much of those low frequencies that would normally go to ground, to the bass woofers.

The results are amazing, driver integration and overall directivity is about as good as it gets for a passive loudspeaker. Coherency is on par with the best 2-way speakers, yet this is a true 3-way. Dynamics are astounding as is bass response as this new crossover design mitigates those losses as I outlined above. Because phase response is more accurate, directivity is improved and this results in remarkable spaciousness, but not overly so such that center imaging is still focused and not dispersed.

We lose a small bit of overall efficiency, but this is offset by presenting an easier impedance load to the amplifier, so the amp uses less current and as such, has more headroom available.

In simple terms, this new crossover brings out the maximum potential of each transducer, sums them ideally and the results are clearly and instantly audible when it comes to dynamics, spaciousness and imaging.

For many reasons I won’t be publishing details on the circuits themselves, but it functions differently than a 3-way parallel crossover and the results have proven to be better than I had expected. I am honestly not sure if it would have been possible to properly design this without an NFS.
 

tifune

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Looks very interesting! But my thoughts when reading about the difficultly of creating such a passive crossover: why not just make it active then?

I'll leave the technical side to the experts, but in my experience there are simple yet very pragmatic benefits to less wires in home theater environments: higher WAF, reduced risk of hum, easier to go through walls/under carpets, etc etc
 

ryanosaur

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Preferences here aside, many people still prefer passive Speakers. Some boutique manufacturers have gotten to the point of recognizing the easiest way to NOT sell a design is to make it active.
Not taking sides in this matter, just stating what I've heard and seen in other discussions from people who do this for a living.

That said, Dave's gear has always been super intriguing. Both he and his product have been pretty well regarded. I hope we get to see his measurements soon, and hopefully some good third party testing, too!
 

Astoneroad

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That said, Dave's gear has always been super intriguing. Both he and his product have been pretty well regarded. I hope we get to see his measurements soon, and hopefully some good third party testing, too!
I can't think of anyone off the top of my head to do such 3rd party measurements. Let's see... Danny? No. Paul? No. Did you have anyone in mind? ;)
 

TimW

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Nice post! Just read the thread on the ascend forum and was surprised to see pictures already here. Looks like an EX style midrange and LX style bass drivers to replace the originals. Along with the Klippel optimized crossover, this should be an excellent speaker. I'm curious to see what the 4 different versions are, I assume an LX tweeter version will be one.
 

ryanosaur

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I can't think of anyone off the top of my head to do such 3rd party measurements. Let's see... Danny? No. Paul? No. Did you have anyone in mind? ;)
There's only two people I can think of that rely on the kindness of others to send them things to Klippel-ize in their own labs. ;)
 

fineMen

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As of this moment they haven't publicly uploaded measurements, but I've been using the new towers since April (I upgraded them from the standard towers) and the new Horizon center (brand new) for a little over a week, both with RAAL tweeters. It's been hard to keep my big mouth shut over the past several months, but I am finally happy to share that these speakers are extraordinary, and I'll be providing detailed impressions as I get time over a busy work week.


We are here a bit into combing the usual marketing blurb out. So here I go:

"The real key to this project is in the unique crossover topology that we have been working on and trying to perfect for over a decade now.
... Such a large value series capacitor in series with the critical midrange driver causes some unavoidable issues. Amongst these are a large phase shift, distortion, and it also dampens dynamics. ... This then takes lows that should not reach the driver directly to ground.
"

Is this due to a language barrier marketing ./. development? A large capacitor doesn't pose any of the claimed problems. It is only a bit costlier, but less than proportional. No distortion, phase shift is wanted for cross-over duties, and how could it possibly dampen dynamics? And again, to direct the low frequency content ( not the frequencies, quite sloppy language ) to ground is exactly what the inductor is supposed to do.

"To filter out... good results. ...
With help from advanced computer modeling and hundreds of hours of NFS testing, we have finally been successful in developing this different crossover topology, that avoids the negatives of a large series capacitor as described previously while also routing much of those low frequencies that would normally go to ground, to the bass woofers.
... The results are amazing, driver integration and overall directivity is about as good as it gets for a passive loudspeaker. Coherency is on par with the best 2-way speakers, yet this is a true 3-way. Dynamics are astounding as is bass response as this new crossover design mitigates those losses as I outlined above."

A topology as such, means the basic principle has to be tested on the NFS?! And if, in this case additional, low frequency content is routed to the woofers, it cannot work! Is it steeper, changed cross-over frequency, it doesn't make any sense to me.
If a three-way isn't better than a more compromised two-way it has to be considered a failed attempt, always. How could the cross-over lose bass?

The topology isn't shown. Is it a new patent, or something from the past? We'll see.
 

617

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As a passive filter aficionado I wonder what he did. One possibility is that he is doing some kind of series crossover rather than parallel. Maybe series for the lower network an parallel for the upper.

The huge cap on the mid is the most costly crossover component in a 3 way, up there with the first inductor on the woofer. This is a big reason why we see more mtm designs than 3 ways.

Series crossovers are much more difficult to model, or at least more difficult to tweak, than parallel crossovers, but iirc there can be benefits to cost, if not performance.

If someone posted pics of the new boards I bet I could figure out what's going on.
 

TimW

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As a passive filter aficionado I wonder what he did. One possibility is that he is doing some kind of series crossover rather than parallel. Maybe series for the lower network an parallel for the upper.

The huge cap on the mid is the most costly crossover component in a 3 way, up there with the first inductor on the woofer. This is a big reason why we see more mtm designs than 3 ways.

Series crossovers are much more difficult to model, or at least more difficult to tweak, than parallel crossovers, but iirc there can be benefits to cost, if not performance.

If someone posted pics of the new boards I bet I could figure out what's going on.
crossover_600.png
 

617

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OK input is on right, goes to tweeter board and mid woofer board below. Tweeter goes to tweeter output on left.

Midwoofer board has mid and woofer outputs but tellingly has five, not four wires connected at the outputs. I believe this extra wire is used to connect the woofer array and mid together in series.
 

TimW

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OK input is on right, goes to tweeter board and mid woofer board below. Tweeter goes to tweeter output on left.

Midwoofer board has mid and woofer outputs but tellingly has five, not four wires connected at the outputs. I believe this extra wire is used to connect the woofer array and mid together in series.
Look at the crossover pictured in the second post, there are 6 output wires there.
 
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mj30250

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I think the Ascend picture might be hiding the 6th wire out of site simply due to the angle of the picture. There should be 6 output wires between the woofers and midrange.

My crossover and the one in the Ascend picture are still not the same, likely because theirs is for a different tweeter (perhaps the Titan dome).
 

Astoneroad

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There's only two people I can think of that rely on the kindness of others to send them things to Klippel-ize in their own labs. ;)
Yeah... but mine is in the shop... and you're too busy.... hmmm. I heard about some madman in the Pacific Northwest that does that kind of thing... but they say he's a wizard. They say he's an alchemist. They say... he can measure ratios of noise and distortion. They say... he can tell you how much snake oil resides in the hearts of men... just by the title of the thread they create. They say... he decapitates panthers for amusement. They say... 'By the pricking of his thumbs, Something wicked this way comes'... that he calls... "Science" ;) (Quote attributed to Edward de Vere... lol)
 
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fineMen

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I think the Ascend picture might be hiding the 6th wire out of site simply due to the angle of the picture. There should be 6 output wires between the woofers and midrange.

My crossover and the one in the Ascend picture are still not the same, likely because theirs is for a different tweeter (perhaps the Titan dome).
I won't speculate about the nature of the new topology. Parallel, serial, or a chained mid to high cross-over? If the bass to mid cross-over frequency is chosen reasonably low in order to make the effort worthwhile, an impedance equaliser is probably used in the bass section. That might become expensive, as values like a few 100 µF are needed. And because it sits in the region where pop music is most demanding (~65Hz), one needs to observe the current capabilities of that electrolytic. With a standardized noise test the speaker will easily survive, but once boom-bass-tic is fed in, it would otherwise soon be cooked. 330µF / 100V / 5A continuous are hard to find and huge and expensive.

I gave up on serial x/o because of a fear of stronger IM due to varying voice coil inductance.
 

kemmler3D

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Some boutique manufacturers have gotten to the point of recognizing the easiest way to NOT sell a design is to make it active.
Not taking sides in this matter, just stating what I've heard and seen in other discussions from people who do this for a living.
If you are a boutique speaker manufacturer, then you're primarily building expensive speakers who are buying upgrades to an already-quite-expensive system. I would guess 90% or more of this audience owns an amp or three that they also spent a lot on. Telling these people to let their "investments" in good sound collect dust is surely not a great strategy.

There's also the fact that many (most?) people believe the amp has some huge effect on SQ / FR. In that case, they would want to buy the amps from a specialist as well as the speaker - a speaker company can't make good amps and vice-versa, will be the basic logic.

Unfortunately, a high-end active speaker is for a high-end customer that doesn't own any amps. Do you know anyone like that? I don't... :D
 

ryanosaur

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Unfortunately, a high-end active speaker is for a high-end customer that doesn't own any amps. Do you know anyone like that? I don't... :D
Some folk with High End Active Speakers actually still need external Amps, I hear.

Alas, I suffer neither of those problems. I'm a plebeian passivist. ...With lowly external Amps which were not blessed by someone worthy of the title, "specialist." *sighs woefully ;)
 
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