Article: Does Vinyl Really Sound Better?

[Wombat]

Ah, talk of plasmas. Like old times.



I still own an old Panasonic "ED" resolution (about DVD resolution) plasma which has been doing TV duty for almost 20 years. Only 4th generation and back when image retention/burn-in was even more feared than later on. Yet I see no burn in at all, and it keeps chugging along!
(I do my movie/sports watching on a projection set up, which is why I haven't been in a hurry to replace the old plasma).

In the early 2000s I switched my audiophile obsession in to AV/Home Theater obsession. Spend an ungodly amount of time on the AVSforum talking about plasmas and other displays. That's behind me now...and I'm back to focusing on music. It's just one obsession to replace the other

The retention on my old Panasonic plasma TV was caused by my daily use of the record program menu from my DVR and using the menu for replay selection. If only the menus were subdued in brightness. The Sony replacement is inferior re picture quality.

 

[xr100]

Saying something sounds better (to that individual) is not the same as stating it IS better (meaning in a technical sense).

You cannot argue about taste.

As a format (i.e. disregarding inferior transfers/mastering in the case of digital) vinyl adds a whole raft of artifacts. The question therefore is which artifacts the listener regards as desirable, and thus can be considered part of the "signal," and which aren't.

Even in this sense, I would suggest that vinyl has a very poor "SINAD," if you will; and it's a dreadfully uncontrolled way of adding artifacts.

For example, the stereo image can be "modified" using the Waves PS22 ("PseudoStereo") plug-in:

The PS22 plug-in process is based on work by Michael Gerzon (patented.) Whilst Gerzon is deservedly highly respected for his contributions to audio engineering, I think it's a suboptimal method, but at least that lends it "street cred."

In any case, keeping the above "default" settings but reducing the amount of effect to a less extreme level does produce a result that's somewhat reminiscent of an aspect of vinyl. And there's no crackle, surface noise, etc.

(To be clear, this is not something I would ever want to use for reproduction purposes.)

 

[solderdude]

Technically the vinyl format is inferior to digital.
Some folks, however, prefer the additions and changes vinyl brings.

Sounds better to them but is because of inferior technical performance.

Just let them enjoy the format and be happy. I have said my goodby to this ancient tech a long time ago.
Lately I bougth a cheap Philips AG4000 I owned as a kid. Restored it and listen to some old LP's I still have lying around.
No bass, no treble, just mono mids, ticks, hum and audible noise and distortion but fun and nostalgic.
Funnily enough in my mind that player sounded great... it sounds utter crap in reality but still enjoy it.

 

[xr100]

Technically the vinyl format is inferior to digital.
Some folks, however, prefer the additions and changes vinyl brings.

Sounds better to them but is because of inferior technical performance.

Just let them enjoy the format and be happy.

If someone wants to listen to vinyl, who am I to stop them? Heck, I've had entertaining evenings of vinyl listening in friends' living rooms. Apart from the handling of the medium, I look at the needle dragged along the grooves and consider it something of a marvel that it's able to yield (loosely) a "high fidelity" result.

However... in the interests of a scientific approach to audio rather than a mystical one, it's as well to identify the ways in which vinyl deviates from being "accurate," and, where such deviations are desired, consider how they might be achieved in an optimal or improved way.

The production side is heavily infected by the problem of mystical approaches to audio, with all sorts of expensive "vintage" gear available and digital emulations thereof. For example, I don't want the so-called "mojo" of an accurate (as it can be with today's DSP resources) tape emulation stamped on music that I listen to. This approach allows plenty of room for artistic choices, in fact provides more artistic control, whilst avoiding unnecessary and deleterious artifacts.

IMO, an "audio science review" for audio production is urgently needed... calling out in an effective way as has been done with badly engineered "high end" audio reproduction gear.

 

[kn0ppers]

Does it sound better? Obviously not, but it sure feels better.

 

[Theo]

You can't beat the touch and feel of the sleeve It's a little bit like paper book .vs. tablet! Nothing to do with SQ...

 

[xr100]

You can't beat the touch and feel of the sleeve It's a little bit like paper book .vs. tablet! Nothing to do with SQ...

Hmm... the challenge for "ereading" has been to get it up to the "gold standard" achieved by properly typeset printed books.

According to Bill Hill, formerly of Microsoft's typography group, books are actually a remarkable cultural artifact in that it turns out that they are pretty much optimal for human physiology. Basically, there are reasons why books "work" that were not known at the time that typography, form factor, layout, etc. had reached maturity.

Good overview in "The Magic of Reading" (Bill Hill) (document available on the Web) and the infamous MSDN Channel 9 videos with Bill Hill make for fascinating viewing, even if one isn't directly interested in the subject matter.

So, there is the "feel" of books, but also scientific reasons why the experience of reading them can be "magical."

 

[Robin L]

My interest in LP reproduction gradually erased as I spent more time actually playing music instead of playing LPs or CDs. There may be various "noises off" when playing music with others, they aren't the same as the distortions and noises [clicks, pops, non-fill distortion, gradually increasing audible distortion] of the LP. The lack of these noises can make CDs sound surreal, though digital replay of "live" recordings always has more than enough of those shuffling, coughing and muttering sounds that give that "live" affect. And some sonic productions are more surreal than others.

Once I detached from the LP format, I lost all desire to return to it.

 

[scott wurcer]

Now I'm displaying that content in an inaccurate fashion actually - by eliminating HDR, reducing color pallete and brightness, and skipping frames to make it look like old 35mm film content.

Sorry maybe a misunderstanding, I was a projectionist in the distant past (including 35mm). With an arc lamp at the right color temperature and the highest quality lenses I don't see what we were missing that was there on the film. BTW I don't like what they are doing to some of the old films on channels like MGM either. Personal preference in there too, I won't waste any more space here.

 

[Wes]

Vinyl Really Sounds Better than wax cylinders.

 

[Robin L]

Vinyl Really Sounds Better than wax cylinders.

I don"t know. Wax cylinders have that straight-line tracking thing goin' on you know.

 

[Blumlein 88]

My interest in LP reproduction gradually erased as I spent more time actually playing music instead of playing LPs or CDs. There may be various "noises off" when playing music with others, they aren't the same as the distortions and noises [clicks, pops, non-fill distortion, gradually increasing audible distortion] of the LP. The lack of these noises can make CDs sound surreal, though digital replay of "live" recordings always have more than enough of those shuffling, coughing and muttering sounds that give that "live" affect. And some sonic productions are more surreal than others.

Once I detached from the LP format, I lost all desire to return to it.

I experienced similar years ago. In time I sold off all my LP gear, and haven't looked back.

 

[Dimitri]

Every decision made is the best decision made superseding all previous decisions.
I dont' expect anyone to regret or admit regretting getting rid of 100-200-500 LPs .
Most of the potential of digital reproductions is being destroyed by dubious boneheaded mastering.
So what's the point?
Between a badly mastered digital and a better mastered LP why would anyone argue that "digital bla...blah...bla..."
Some day the loudness war will be over and digital will get more respect.
Or people will have forgotten what recorded music can sound like and will be satisfied with whatever atrocity is being streamed to the masses.

Does vinyl sound better?
If the digital version available has been butchered, sure it does!

 

[xr100]

Sorry maybe a misunderstanding, I was a projectionist in the distant past (including 35mm). With an arc lamp at the right color temperature and the highest quality lenses I don't see what we were missing that was there on the film. BTW I don't like what they are doing to some of the old films on channels like MGM either. Personal preference in there too, I won't waste any more space here.

Briefly: By the time the film is printed for distribution it's some generations away (e.g. negative->interpositive->internegative->release print) away from the original.

A way in which the quality is reduced is that the "resolution" (or rather "modulation transfer function") is degraded with each generation, added to which is "gate weave" etc., plus the projector's lens (which, even if excellent, the total system performance is the loss in each stage multiplied together.)

Some published work has found that, as (properly) projected, release prints are below "HD" resolution, albeit this has been the subject of some debate (e.g. over the quality of the sample "release prints" used.) Either way, it is clear that it's not "4K," and it's certainly much less than the original camera negatives.

The problem, then, is that there is an (unreliable!) memory of what a movie actually looked like in cinemas/theatres, as well as the fact that release prints were never accurate copies in the first place, and that available reference material (i.e. stored interpositives or release prints) may have substantially degraded over the years.

Also, in the digital domain so much more is possible (e.g. in colour grading) that there is always the question of what the movie would have looked like, had the same tools been available at the time it was made.

It's a minefield, so I'll leave it there--and good film transfers to digital distribution are another story.

I'm sorry that the above wasn't altogether "brief" enough; however, suffice it to say that the parallels with audio are, I trust, more than obvious. (e.g. Generational loss, "resolution" of vinyl vs. 16-bit PCM, available reference recordings that provide accurate impressions of the originally intended sound, poor quality source recordings/transfers/mastering, etc.)

(N.B. I have the greatest respect for "old school" film projectionists, who worked hard to provide the very best possible quality of presentation and maintained high professional standards. A few individuals who uphold that tradition still exist today.)

 

[scott wurcer]

Briefly: By the time the film is printed for distribution it's some generations away (e.g. negative->interpositive->internegative->release print) away from the original.

Briefly, the resolution (MTF) stuff matters little here it's the color gamut. These conversations are virtually pointless, like with wine you need to open a bottle face to face and have a discussion.

 

[xr100]

These conversations are virtually pointless, like with wine you need to open a bottle face to face and have a discussion.

Surely, wine requires double blind tests...? ;-)

 

[scott wurcer]

Surely, wine requires double blind tests...? ;-)

Not for comparative personal preference. Think simply tasting a steak and kidney pie, I would probably love it while not many here would. There is no reference of "accuracy". BTW the "Hendrix Live at Winterland" CD used massive DSP restoration and sounded like it was recorded yesterday, I hated it.

 

[watchnerd]

Frank Sinatra + smoking jacket + martini + vinyl = I'm on my own personal Mad Men set

Frank Sinatra + smoking jacket + martini + digital = Halloween costume

 

[mhardy6647]

Not quite on-topic, but kind of interesting nonetheless (albeit YMMV).

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/01/13/dj-shadows-sonic-archeology

 

[Wombat]

Frank Sinatra + smoking jacket + martini + vinyl = I'm on my own personal Mad Men set

Frank Sinatra + smoking jacket + martini + digital = Halloween costume

I adopted CD over vinyl when CDs appeared. It was indeed a hallowed wean.

I have kept the vinyl, though. Turntables are not connected-up. Must get a Round Tuit.