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Are tubes more musical?

Whilst the above is true for the damping factors shown, except for some zero-feedback SET amplifiers, which in my view are not amplifiers, but effects boxes, most half-decent valve amplifiers of the 1950s and 60s had damping factors of 16+, so the frequency response variations were acceptably small.

S.
 
Do tubes enhance dynamics?
They do the exact opposite (when no to little feedback is used).
Funnily enough people find less dynamic music often more dynamic because you can hear smaller signals more clearly.
The warm sound of tubes seems perfect for laid back and acoustic music styles like jazz.
Could be by association, could be rolled-off response, could be a higher output impedance in combination with a varying (lower impedance) headphone.
 
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Oh, with respect to this thread -- and at the risk of being catty*, I was... you know... surfing the web last night (as they used to say 30 years ago) and I noticed a new thread on another audio forum with the same title as this one. I thought that was interesting. :)

Full disclosure, I like and use vacuum tube-containing components for audio reproduction -- but I'd never claim that they were more musical in the context of the reproduction of music. I just like 'em.



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* me? ;) :facepalm:
 
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Can you share the reference for this, or is it calculated ab initio by you?
There is extremely knowledgeable members on diy audio dot com. I saved it from a post there.
I trust my source but don't guarantee it.
 

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There is extremely knowledgeable members on diy audio dot com. I saved it from a post there.
I trust my source but don't guarantee it.
Thanks! I don't doubt your source, either, but it's nice to have context for a graph.
I have a slightly different perspective on amplifier output impedance, FWIW (and apropos of nothing -- except maybe "tube sound"). Those of us who choose to live with :) amplifiers with relatively high output impedance also accept (whether actively or passively, so to speak) the need to choose loudspeakers carefully for best results! Those of us who further choose fleapower (SE 2A3 is on the order of 3 watts of "undistorted" output -- and the 1930s definition of undistorted was rather different than 2024's prevailing notions ;)), yields even more constraint ("guidance") vis-a-vis loudspeaker choices.
 
I have experienced attachment to various kinds of things: people, animals, plants, musical instruments, works of art, brands of whiskey, even a couple of my bicycles will be hard to part with because of what we've been through together but despite a few episodes of GAS I don't think I ever managed it with hifi gear.
You should probably buy a tube amp then
 
There is apparently interest in tube amplifiers. Otherwise, Audiophonics, which is a well-known seller of class D amplifiers, would not sell tube amplifiers.
Audiophonics know what to press in the sales text: discover tube sound, musicality and warmth.

It offers you the possibility to discover the real "Sound tube" with all the musicality and warmth desired for a particularly attractive price / quality ratio.

The usual waffle you always read when tube amplifiers are to be sold and marketed, but don't you usually say tube sound? Sound tube what is that? :oops:

 
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The human ear seems to like these distorted records, and we are now overly pursuing HIFI, which is somewhat similar to listening products, seemingly monitoring someone the whole time, which is too nervous.
The ”human ear”? Please specify whose human ear you are talking about.
 
Since I never said that, I have no idea what you’re talking about. It never sounded bright to me, but it was horribly unstable design, so I didn’t live with it long term.

So using the 55 year old Tiger’s distortion vs frequency, are you ready to go to demonstrate your assertions? Name the cut and I’ll publicly post the files.
In that case I'm putting the Tiger comment up to a communication error. As I recall it was a painful amp.

cut 1: Algunas Bestias
cut 2: Sandino
Or we could use your claimed "bright" GFA-565, which has the turnover at about 14kHz, putting the harmonics well above the human range.

View attachment 397673

Reference: https://www.stereophile.com/content/adcom-gfa-565-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements
Its been my theory that above 10KHz a distortion rise with frequency won't be heard for obvious reasons. So this has my interest piqued.
They do the exact opposite (when no to little feedback is used).
Funnily enough people find less dynamic music often more dynamic because you can hear smaller signals more clearly.

Could be by association, could be rolled-off response, could be a higher output impedance in combination with a varying (lower impedance) headphone.
Citation needed; this appears a highly speculative and a rather subjective observation. FWIW, SET users (Single Ended Triode amps typically are zero feedback) commonly describe SETs are being more dynamic rather than less. Its my contention this is caused by how the amplifier distorts and how that in turn skews the ear's mechanism for sensing sound pressure (IOW, its an illusion). Actual, real dynamic qualities reside in the recording and are not actually a function of amplifiers whether tube or solid state.

'Rolled off response' makes no sense as many tube amps have wide bandwidth; that was a big deal with Stu Hegeman, the designer of early HK tube equipment including the Citation series. The Citation 2 of this thread has bandwidth that often goes higher than the published specifications, which can be regarded as nominal (I just put my Citation 2 on the bench and it easily made full power to 70KHz). The Citation 2 BTW employs enough feedback that it is able to act as a Voltage source as long as the load impedance does not get too low so FR variation is not a variable. Tube headphone amps tend to have much wider response and headphones tend to be a very easy load.

I commented earlier on the subjective quality of 'dynamics'.
Sound tube what is that? :oops:
A simple way to answer than of course is to obtain a good tube amplifier and find out. IME a side by side demo easily shows the difference to anyone in the room as its usually not subtle. The speakers used for such a demo should be of the kind that both the control amplifier and the tube amp both find to be an easy load so FR variation can be ruled out.

IME, these are the differences, which are easily measured:

1) more prodigious 2nd and 3rd harmonic than seen in most solid state amps; which the ear interprets as 'warmth'. I know some people think this is because of a hump in the bass or some such but if you put such amps on the bench you see there isn't anything like that unless the amp lacks feedback. If it lacks feedback the amp is meant to be used on a speaker that is designed with that in mind to prevent coloration.
2) A 'smoother more relaxed sound'; my theory being that the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are masking higher orders in the same way as seen in loudspeakers.
3) The reduced generation of higher orders at clipping, which allows for a graceful overload characteristic. Quite often people are overloading their tube amps and don't even know it. Guitar players in the past are well-known for using tube amplifiers for exactly the purpose of overdrive; that is how Marshall, Fender, Ampeg and so on made their names.

Once you really understand these facts it allows an access for designing and building a solid state amp that does the same thing should that be desired. You can even get the 3rd aspect of soft clipping if SITs are used in the output section. Its highly likely that a multi-ordered feedback loop will be needed and care in the circuit design should be taken to minimize distorting the feedback signal at the feedback node.
 
we are now overly pursuing HIFI, which is somewhat similar to listening products, seemingly monitoring someone the whole time, which is too nervous.
I wouldn't say so. For me the point of engineering high performance audio gear is so that it gets out of the way of the music.

There's more emotion involved. I even think the old radio or the old record player sounds good, even though they are very distorted.
Seems you're the one listening to the equipment instead of the music, not me.
 
Seems you're the one listening to the equipment instead of the music, not me.
FWIW, a comment we often see about solid state amps is they 'lack emotion; are dry and lifeless'. I've been hearing that feedback for over 35 years so I've come to think there's something to it. My theory is it has something to do with distortion- how H2 and H3 interact with the ear/brain system to create the illusion of more detail, richer sound, that sort of thing.
 
FWIW, a comment we often see about solid state amps is they 'lack emotion; are dry and lifeless'. I've been hearing that feedback for over 35 years so I've come to think there's something to it. My theory is it has something to do with distortion- how H2 and H3 interact with the ear/brain system to create the illusion of more detail, richer sound, that sort of thing.
Yes, I know. I've been hearing the same stories for even longer but I suspect something else. I think the industry has not invested in the psycho-acoustic research that would settle the argument for a very good reason. See my comments above about the ambiguity essential in all esoteric arts or the Dennett quote about magic.

See also my post explaining why I don't bother adding non-linear effects to my playback systems.
 
Citation needed; this appears a highly speculative and a rather subjective observation. FWIW, SET users (Single Ended Triode amps typically are zero feedback) commonly describe SETs are being more dynamic rather than less. Its my contention this is caused by how the amplifier distorts and how that in turn skews the ear's mechanism for sensing sound pressure (IOW, its an illusion). Actual, real dynamic qualities reside in the recording and are not actually a function of amplifiers whether tube or solid state.

Depends on tube circuit and parts. Poor bandwidth transformers won't have the linearity needed to get the dynamics for example. In general though, Ultra linear wiring and push pull circuits (yes this needs negative feedback by default) tend to have more dynamic headroom than no-feedback SET amps so in this case @solderdude 's statement is generally true
 
In that case I'm putting the Tiger comment up to a communication error. As I recall it was a painful amp.
OK, so I've wasted even more time chasing this. Adcom 555, no, 565, no, ancient SWTP Tiger, no. The only ss amp I've measured which has a low turnover frequency is a John Curl amp from Parasound. Lots of tube amps, though. And both the uncontrolled "reviewer" impressions for a similar model with similar measurements("It equals the earlier amplifier's smooth, clean high frequencies ") and John Atkinson's comments in the measurements section ("As I wrote about the Parasound Halo JC 1+, it is safe to say that the JCA100 Tribute's distortion signature will have no effect on the amplifier's sonic character") deny any brightness. Have you used any of their JC amps and found them bright?

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At long last, name a ss amp which is bright that we can simulate and post the processed files in public. And this will be your final answer unless YOU are chasing the distortion measurements. The ducking, dodging, and backpedaling are looking all too familiar. If this is indeed a characteristic coloration for ss as you claim, this is really not a hard task.
 
It's well known that some classic guitar amp circuits compress with a dynamic characteristic that comes from a push-pull power stage with a power supply that sags as you play loud. In some situations the effect is so well known and desirable that digital amp modelers have had to simulate the effect to complete with the classic circuits.

I don't know if this has ever been part of the narrative about why some people like tube amps better in hifi or not.
 
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