Are tubes more musical?

[win]

I have about $4000 in high end 6SN7 tubes that all are supposed to have different sound profiles. Now that I have an RME ADI-2, I've been meaning to record them all vs a control and capture what it is they are doing to the music. I'm sure some might say the 'magic' is lost as soon as you convert back to digital though

 

[MattHooper]

Due to the low damping tube amps tend to alter the speaker frequency curve to a more bassy sound with a lot of speakers, altough that is mostly subtile.

I’ve been wondering about this. I am a numbskull when it comes to understanding electricity, amps, etc.

But I’m aware that “ damping factor” is something often talked about in regards to amplifiers, including tube amplifiers.

Am I right in inferring that “ damping factor” would have to do and how well an amplifier controls the movement of the speaker drivers?

And especially in the lower frequencies, an amplifier with a damping factor would be in less control of the woofers, they aren’t starting and stopping as quickly, leading to some “ blurring or thickening” of the bass?

If so, perhaps that explains my perceptions of certain qualities when I’ve compared my tube amps to solid state. For instance, when I had a Bryston 4B3 for a while, one of the more pronounced differences would occur playing some of my favourite soundtracks, such as Conan barbarian. It’s a massive symphonic theme where at parts the brass is blowing their brains out in the lower registers, along with the strings and woodwinds in similar registers down in the bass.

Using my tube amp, those combinations of instruments in that region would tend to get more muddy and congealed sounding, with the individual instrumental sections being less distinct.

On the solace State amp, There seem to be a higher measure of control, whereby right in that region, all those instruments playing in the power region were cleared up and separated better.

So my layman’s intuition was that this was perhaps showing the lower damping factor with my tube amp.

Does that make sense?

Or, could the problem have more likely been some simple frequency response deviation, a bulge in the base in that region?

BTW, the natural inference from what I wrote there would be that I would end up preferring the solid-state amp presentation. But I didn’t. Surprisingly, I was a little bit letdown by it. With the extra power from the solid state amp, And how it would likely be cleaner even in the most boisterous orchestral moments, I thought it might come off as a more powerful orchestral presentation. But instead, it seemed a little more laid-back. I was used to a more punchy presentation of that music.

Going back-and-forth between them, it seemed that the slight blurring and congealing of those instruments as I described, as well as a slight overall thickening of the sound and slight added texture to the upper mid range, gave the presentation to sort of more powerful and dense presention. Perceptually, it was sort of like putting a little bit of compression on the track. I really appreciate it things. The solicit app brought to the presentation, but in the end, if I had to choose, I would go back to the tube amp presentation was used to.

 

[Vacceo]

In my case, it's being able to more erasily follow melody lines, the harmomies and how they 'relate' to each other. Being able to more easily 'sing along' with songs (yes, even Elizabeth Fraser's Cocteau Twins 'lyrics' - Gawd bless her), which I have done since childhood although my singing voice, much like the rest of me now, has seem far better days

Added compression rather than limiting, may well enhance this feeling of 'musicality' and this could be a factor in so many 'audiophiles' still preferring vinyl with its band-limited and slightly compressed halo of sound in most cases.

Some of my old Vynils, particularly for oldies such as Sodom´s first records sound quite worse than more modern CD versions basically because the lowest sections are not as clear. This is even more evident with Slayer (which I can also compare Reign in Blood in vynil and remastered in CD).

 

[Timcognito]

 

[rank]

I've had a few tube amps, some whose names will mean nothing to most of you, but also an ARC Classic 60 (I tried the 30 just before). In their comfort zone, they sound pretty much like anything else (I should point out that I mainly use high-efficiency speakers: over 96dB/W/m). But if you push them to their limits, things can go bad very quickly.
Plus the hassle of having to change the EL 34s (one had autobias, that said) like the stylus of a cartridge...
It seemed to me that the bass and a little bit of the treble were better with solid state. And it costed ten times less, so that meant more records I could buy.

 

[Multicore]

I've got a couple tube amps that I'll never sell. I don't use them a lot, but I do not have a similar attachment to any of my solid state gear.

I have experienced attachment to various kinds of things: people, animals, plants, musical instruments, works of art, brands of whiskey, even a couple of my bicycles will be hard to part with because of what we've been through together but despite a few episodes of GAS I don't think I ever managed it with hifi gear.

 

[Soandso]

Dowsing -- I cannot vouch for any place but New England, but (anecdotally) even in 2024 it seems de rigueur around here to employ a dowser when siting a new well.

I supervised a hand dug fresh water well on my semi-arid rural property in 2000 on a foreign island. An older neighbor had insisted on bringing over a specific dowser from across the river about 20 miles away.

The dowser selected a spot quite close to the back corner of my house. Being about 10 - 12 feet diagonally away I remonstrated how he'd found other responses farther away. He was adamant that spot was the best and subsequently after almost giving up hope around 40 feet down I reached clear signs of water.

My strike of potable water inspired a cattle rancher down around the bend in the road to hand dig a well. He got water and bragged about more output than me at shallower depth, but in about 2 years his well ran dry. Later on a fellow up the road drilled a perforated well about 1 km away and got plenty of water, but in a few years sold me his hand pump because his water had become too salty to use.

If I remember correctly the dowser arrived empty handed. He selected something off what was more a bush growing on my land than a tree which probably can be called a switch, as I don't think it was actually a forked branch. Maybe he held a switch in each hand, but am no longer certain what any signs of water responses to a switch looked like as he walked around.

 

[DMill]

There is a Rush song, Red Barchetta, that talks about a guy who likes to take his combustion engine car out for ride. Most likely inferior to modern vehicles. But he likes it. I typically hate audio vs car analogies, but in this case it explains why many people love tubes. They like to tweak, they like imperfection, and they like spending money on something they love. It’s pretty simple really. BTW, I have a nice tube amp.

 

[OldHvyMec]

You're obviously not eating the right bread

Because it's a characterization and not an absolute I still refer back to my original statement.

As you have perfectly illustrated some people like their drinks as plane as the tree they were picked from, yet others like to take a fruit (for example),
ferment it, and give everyone their opinion on how well it fermented, for the lack of a better term rotted a certain way.

I haven't drank more than a bottle, (between friends and family) of 50-year-old Mescal at my daughters wedding in 15+ years. I always used alcohol
for the effect and seldom the taste much like any drug I've ever used.

I hear references to wine, whiskies, beer (total YUK) and other alcoholic beverages and people will DRINK a 20 to 2000.00 dollar bottle of whatever and
never blink an eye. BUT those same people will express to others how good it tastes. I suggest that anything anyone does on a regular basis is nothing
more than an excessive compulsive reaction to their own personal preference or in many cases addictions.

I can justify my addiction to valve amps vs alcohol predicated on the fact that when I wake up the next day and take a piss that addiction is gone and
that valve amp is still there to continue and give me pleasure without a hangover. Whether I mixed that beverage with water or put a nipple on the bottle,
the result is the same.

The difference between solid-state vs valves is what constitutes pleasure vs meeting specifications on a scale. Because MY pleasure is measured
by MY ears and not someone else's scientific absolutes, it's a simple choice much like putting red vs black pepper on food. They both have an effect
but surely not the same unless a person pours the whole container on a given food.

The way a valve amp sounds is not a lack of precision but a choice that many builders like Atmosphere have understood most of their professional lives.

I don't expect to convert anyone from the expectations of precision any more than I would expect to change a person's mind on pleasure. It's not a
placebo if there is a constant result from the person using a glass of water to feel good vs a person that downs a bottle of 90 proof and can still stand up
claiming how good they feel. Who am I to question their actions unless I specialize in liver transplants which has nothing to do with feelings?

The accusation that because a person has a profession that is clouded by marketing that profession, requires PROOF to its accuracy vs pleasure (by their terms)
is as silly as saying all cars are the same, just pick a vehicle with 3 to 18 wheels. Variety is the essence of any given individual's personality. Valves
are a part of my life's preference, all the normal backhanded slights are only expected, it still doesn't change any choices I make. That is why we have
elections vs successions.

The measure doesn't require an explanation if the result is success, in my book. I'm the one who has to be satisfied. How I get there seems to be a point
of contention for some people. LOL That is the reason for an ignore button.

With solid state the ability to match the sound of certain valve builds has become a reality. It wasn't done to prove a point (though it did) it met a need for
a simple fact, things can change, but people's preferences don't. Where I can listen to certain valve systems all day long, I can't with many SS sound systems.

The more accurate the speaker is, the more revealing the amp build is. I prefer pleasure over being scientifically correct at 69 years old. I define musical as
something I can continue to listen to. I define noise as something I use earplugs for. One gives me pleasure one gives me a headache.

NOISE is a key factor in accidents in the workplace, removing the noise and replacing it with the right music, production may not go up but it does
contribute to consistency and LESS fatigue. It adds a RYTHEM to the work There have been countless studies on types of music in department stores
and of course, the term elevator music has always calmed the claustrophobia much like light does in a smaller place. I've never heard heavy metal
in an elevator, but then I haven't been in everyone either.

Back to pizza I guess, speaking of pizza, I'm going to order a Melos combination and add Canadian bacon. I stock my own anchovies and peppers.

Regards

 

[Axo1989]

Then I guess my taste is completely different because I like the artifacts to be clear and pristine. If I listen to unnatural sounds it´s exactly because they are unnatural. I enjoy the "disconfort" that sounds like Axis of Perdition or Red Harvest (more on the industrial than techno side) produce. As I´m typing this, I have a couple Pitchshifter old records playing, and I absolutely love their very raw, low fi approach of their first works.

Older, inferior forms of music may benefit from added harmonics in reproduction, but these days, we have the technology (to add curtains of distortion at the artist's fingertips, from which it should emanate).

I think your post was an excellent breakdown! Thank you.

My complete layman’s approach, working hypothesis as it were, aligns with number 4.
The best I can do as a layman he tried to triangulate what various technically knowledgable people say about tube amps - which spans a gamut of scepticism “ tube amps rarely sound different “ to “ of course two lamps often sound different and here’s why .,”

As well as look at my own experience, to provisionally conclude what seems plausible or not.

I have no doubt we can hear subtle differences in reproduction between eg certain tube amps vs certain solid state, etc. Thanks to @GXAlan's 300B vs Topping blind comparison a while back. At least I could, in that instance. And some of these sonic characteristics suited one genre/selection more than another, and played a bit better on one headphone vs another. All listening blind (ie not knowing which source was which, but not statistical ABX repetition).

The other interesting thing was that while I could differentiate, most ASR people who tried couldn't. So I take away that much discussion here is theoretical/dogmatic = piss and wind. When people can't hear something, they are inclined to believe others can't, which is somewhat logical but erroneous. Still fun to discuss though.

Not to overstate subtle differences of course, or extend (my) limited observation to all cases, obviously. Such comparisons are specific, not fungible. And as for not hearing things, when the follow-up test using some classical selections (instead of prog-rock, spoken word and jazz initially) was posted, I was hopeless, and gave up.

 

[DMill]

I hear references to wine, whiskies, beer (total YUK) and other alcoholic beverages and people will DRINK a 20 to 2000.00 dollar bottle of whatever and
never blink an eye. BUT those same people will express to others how good it tastes. I suggest that anything anyone does on a regular basis is nothing
more than an excessive compulsive reaction to their own personal preference or in many cases addictions.

Not sure I follow you but nothing wrong with $400 scotch or whatever. You only live once, why not try it if you have the means?

 

[DMill]

Not to overstate subtle differences of course, or extend (my) limited observation to all cases, obviously. Such comparisons are specific, not fungible. And as for not hearing things, when the follow-up test using some classical selections (instead of prog-rock, spoken word and jazz initially) was posted, I was hopeless, and gave up.

No disrespect intended. You believe a certain genre of music should be held at a higher standard for listening?

 

[Axo1989]

No disrespect intended. You believe a certain genre of music should be held at a higher standard for listening?

No not at all. I mean I was able to differentiate between those amps when listening to selections from those three genres (likely due to familiarity with sonic characteristics of the genre material) but not in a similar test using classical selections (corresponding unfamiliarity). Nothing to do with a hierarchy of musical genres.

 

[KEM]

When I hear an actual live musical performance that sounds "so romantic, warm, soft around the edges, and smooth, even syrupy" I'll get back to you.

If you like what you're hearing, fine. But no, tubes aren't more musical, if that's your question.

Opera performances at the San Francisco Opera House have that romantic, warm, rich, smooth, syrupy, sound. Captivating. The sound type exists, but is rare. That Hall is something special.
I have yet to hear a system with tubes that sound as described by the OP.

 

[Axo1989]

Earl turned me on to a fair bit of metal. He also played in several bands. Those recordings sound fine on good tube or solid state gear. Earl is playing guitar in this recording of Aesma Deava

Btw not expecting that, but very enjoyable. Also, the historical anecdotes.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I alluded earlier in the thread how Nelson Pass's idea was once amps are good enough technology can become art.

So imagine you have a large picture of a sunset on your wall. As close to a perfect picture of an actual sunset as is possible at this time. Compare that to a painting of a similar sunset. Both would be beautiful. Both might evoke some emotions or reminders of the real thing. An artist might claim the painting is in a human sense more real or more natural or has more meaning if he has used shades and tones and a style that steers you in an emotional way more than simple reality.

So imo, it makes sense to say any art is in the recording. The stereo gear should be as accurate as possible. Maybe tubes add something not real, not accurate, but in some sense preferred by music listeners. I think the onus is on such claims to show that limited frequency response that is somewhat dependent upon level, extra harmonic distortion, minor compression and other artifacts are in fact creating an artistic effect. It could be literally an aural set of rose colored glasses. Yet such coloration might work more often than not and with some source material would be detrimental. But hey, I like impressionist paintings possible more than any other kind.

 

[MattHooper]

So imo, it makes sense to say any art is in the recording.

The thing with music is that it’s not like going to see Michelangelo’s David.

The nature of how music is distributed means there is an absolute massive variety in how people experience that music. Not only all the different technologies and sound systems people may own, but even the scenarios in which people listen to music, whether it’s blasting a song on the car stereo with the windows open on a summer day, a kitchen smart speaker as background, taking a run or at the gym listening through earbuds, all of which is happening within unpredictable surrounding noise and other stuff competing for their attention. What people are actually perceiving, is going to be part of a complex amalgam of when they are concentrating and on what while all sorts of noise or stimuli is also intruding. The list is endless in terms of the variety of ways people will experience and hear that music.

Adding a teeny bit of possible tube distortion in an otherwise high-performance and detailed system, in a good room , speaker and listening position and acoustics dialled in , especially where the listener will be listening intently ….it strikes me as a very, very minor deviation in the greater scheme of things, vs how most people are experiencing the Art of the musician.

This is why I’m not very moved by suggestions that in even choosing a tube amp “you didn’t go far enough to hear the musicians art.”

(not saying that is what you were implying, but that often is an underlying argument for pursuing as much accuracy as possible around here)

 

[mhardy6647]

I have about $4000 in high end 6SN7 tubes that all are supposed to have different sound profiles. Now that I have an RME ADI-2, I've been meaning to record them all vs a control and capture what it is they are doing to the music. I'm sure some might say the 'magic' is lost as soon as you convert back to digital though

yeah -- danged stair-steps spoil everything.

 

[jayapple]

There's more emotion involved. I even think the old radio or the old record player sounds good, even though they are very distorted.

The human ear seems to like these distorted records, and we are now overly pursuing HIFI, which is somewhat similar to listening products, seemingly monitoring someone the whole time, which is too nervous.

I have some tube amplifiers, I made them myself, I don't think the products on the market are very good, and the other bullshit is that they are ridiculously expensive!!

These tubes even have various origin distinctions... What Russia, the United States, Lithuania, Beijing messy origin, I think are all deceptive people, one hundred percent are made in a small workshop imitation in a rural China, this stuff does not have any technical content, the factory disdain to do this Obsolete product, but the price is very expensive, really bullshit!!

 

[Wesseling Audio Lab]