Are tubes more musical?

[Blumlein 88]

In HT that could be even more interesting, as film dialogue on tubes may sound peculiar to say the least.

Yes, but if more natural for music surely more natural for voice.

I think this is a good idea. Go watch any of the late 1930's or early 1940's movies you can stream on Netflix or similar.

 

[Vacceo]

I´m not even saying good or bad, that is up to the listener; but different, for sure.

 

[pablolie]

Yes, you can use them as pleasing percussion...

 

[Waxx]

The idea that faithfully reproducing a recording is "unmusical" is so obviously inane that I don't think it merits a response.

It isn't, it's that a colouration can add something that even makes it better (in some cases). I have both styles and enjoy both and if you don't want to understand that that is possible, then you have a problem, not I. You don't have to like it, just accept that people genuinly can like that "distorted sound" and have a different (subjective) opinion on what good sound and musical can be.

 

[SIY]

You don't have to like it, just accept that people genuinly can like that "distorted sound" and have a different (subjective) opinion

By "subjective" here, you mean "uncontrolled?"

 

[MattHooper]

The problem here is, what do we do with music that is by nature of its creation, incredibly artificial? Think of anything using syths, from Kraftwerk to Front Line Assemby. Wouldn´t that source be "unmusical" due to how it was even conceived?

That was addressed in my post:

“or simply (even in the case of artificial sounds) “ more musical” in the sense, they find themselves more relaxed, listening, less focussed on the recording artefacts or the playback gear, and the more easily sink into just listening to the music.”

Your question comes up pretty often and these type of discussions so I’ll just elaborate a bit more.

There are certain characteristics that I have found. I enjoy in particular and that I seek in my sound systems:

1. Density and palpability.

What I mean by this is the sensation of real sound sources probably “ moving air.” Stereo, for instance, gives us the illusion of imaging and space, but relative to the real thing, the limitations of stereo mean that the illusion of, say a saxophone or a vocalist in between the speakers, has a gossamer, see-through “ could waive your hands through it” quality. Sort of phasey unstable like those cheap hologram cards. a real voice or saxophone has an unmistakeable density and palpable presence, moving air in the room from that source, you could reach out and touch it.

Anything that nudges the sound more in the direction of the density and palpability of real sound sources, I find to be very engaging.

2. A lack of mechanical or or artificial quality.
Jeff Joseph of Joseph audio has put it: “Live, unamplified music has unmistakable presence and clarity. Yet, at the same time it also sounds relaxed and warm.”

That is exactly the gist of how I perceive live unamplified music.

It’s my perception, that my tube amps in my system (as well as to a degree vinyl playback) nudges the sound in the direction of both 1 and 2. Which I find highly engaging.

So now to completely artificial music like the type you mentioned.

I am a huge fan of electronic music (including Kraftwork). If the tube amps couldn’t reproduce that music satisfactory, I would not own them.

But I find that exactly the qualities the tube amps bring to acoustic sources, I find beneficial for artificial music to. The synthesizers, handclaps, drum machines, flashes of sequencers flying through the soundstage, all of them have more density and palpability and richness via the tube amps. And the tube amps lend that “ relaxed warmer” tinge that allows my shoulders to relax and I can sink into the music even with highly aggressive recordings.
(in fact, When I was comparing my tube amps to a Bryston solid-state amp, My ears were undergoing as sensitive due to my hyperacusis and Tinnitus. On the Bryston amps I had to turn the sound down or my ears started hurting, but with my tube Amps, I could turn the sound up significantly louder without discomfort).

In HT that could be even more interesting, as film dialogue on tubes may sound peculiar to say the least.

I admit that when I was getting into a projection based Home Theater, I toyed with a tube driven surround system. But I came to my senses.

 

[Timcognito]

Nelson Pass: Circuit Topology and the End of Science

Nelson Pass is a consummate engineer, but he got his start in physics, earning a bachelor's degree from UC Davis. As he worked on his degree, he was already an audio designer, focusing on loudspeakersgreat training for a designer of audio amplifiers. Soon, in 1974, he cofounded Threshold Audio...

www.stereophile.com

 

[MattHooper]

4) Tubes can be a complex set of non-linearities that alter the frequency response of music through a combination of distortion, compressors, expanders, crosstalk, microphonics, etc. It is NOT a simple EQ otherwise you could use a graphic EQ or parametric EQ. Instead you need to use more sophisticated software like VST plugins, compressors, expanders, etc. Unless you subscribe to the idea that it is all sighted bias, the very nature of tube simulations through VSTs strongly indicates that there is a difference.

I think your post was an excellent breakdown! Thank you.

My complete layman’s approach, working hypothesis as it were, aligns with number 4.
The best I can do as a layman he tried to triangulate what various technically knowledgable people say about tube amps - which spans a gamut of scepticism “ tube amps rarely sound different “ to “ of course two lamps often sound different and here’s why .,”

As well as look at my own experience, to provisionally conclude what seems plausible or not.

I will even enjoy tube rolling, though cognizant that I could be fooling myself and would never suggest my anecdotal experience is something that establishes any facts for other people.

 

[Vacceo]

That was addressed in my post:

“or simply (even in the case of artificial sounds) “ more musical” in the sense, they find themselves more relaxed, listening, less focussed on the recording artefacts or the playback gear, and the more easily sink into just listening to the music.”

Your question comes up pretty often and these type of discussions so I’ll just elaborate a bit more.

There are certain characteristics that I have found. I enjoy in particular and that I seek in my sound systems:

1. Density and palpability.

What I mean by this is the sensation of real sound sources probably “ moving air.” Stereo, for instance, gives us the illusion of imaging and space, but relative to the real thing, the limitations of stereo mean that the illusion of, say a saxophone or a vocalist in between the speakers, has a gossamer, see-through “ could waive your hands through it” quality. Sort of phasey unstable like those cheap hologram cards. a real voice or saxophone has an unmistakeable density and palpable presence, moving air in the room from that source, you could reach out and touch it.

Anything that nudges the sound more in the direction of the density and palpability of real sound sources, I find to be very engaging.

2. A lack of mechanical or or artificial quality.
Jeff Joseph of Joseph audio has put it: “Live, unamplified music has unmistakable presence and clarity. Yet, at the same time it also sounds relaxed and warm.”

That is exactly the gist of how I perceive live unamplified music.

It’s my perception, that my tube amps in my system (as well as to a degree vinyl playback) nudges the sound in the direction of both 1 and 2. Which I find highly engaging.

So now to completely artificial music like the type you mentioned.

I am a huge fan of electronic music (including Kraftwork). If the tube amps couldn’t reproduce that music satisfactory, I would not own them.

But I find that exactly the qualities the tube amps bring to acoustic sources, I find beneficial for artificial music to. The synthesizers, handclaps, drum machines, flashes of sequencers flying through the soundstage, all of them have more density and palpability and richness via the tube amps. And the tube amps lend that “ relaxed warmer” tinge that allows my shoulders to relax and I can sink into the music even with highly aggressive recordings.
(in fact, When I was comparing my tube amps to a Bryston solid-state amp, My ears were undergoing as sensitive due to my hyperacusis and Tinnitus. On the Bryston amps I had to turn the sound down or my ears started hurting, but with my tube Amps, I could turn the sound up significantly louder without discomfort).



I admit that when I was getting into a projection based Home Theater, I toyed with a tube driven surround system. But I came to my senses.

Then I guess my taste is completely different because I like the artifacts to be clear and pristine. If I listen to unnatural sounds it´s exactly because they are unnatural. I enjoy the "disconfort" that sounds like Axis of Perdition or Red Harvest (more on the industrial than techno side) produce. As I´m typing this, I have a couple Pitchshifter old records playing, and I absolutely love their very raw, low fi approach of their first works.

Nothing wrong on your choices, because it boils down to how spicy you want your meal, from scorching to not at all. And all are good choices.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Nelson Pass: Circuit Topology and the End of Science

Nelson Pass is a consummate engineer, but he got his start in physics, earning a bachelor's degree from UC Davis. As he worked on his degree, he was already an audio designer, focusing on loudspeakersgreat training for a designer of audio amplifiers. Soon, in 1974, he cofounded Threshold Audio...

www.stereophile.com

I like his statement referring to McLuhan. The everyday amplifier needs are met by current products. When that happens technology can be turned into art.

So it is a case where simplicity and working within artificial constraints can be mentally satisfying to him and perhaps interesting to some small number of people. I think you have the same situation in John Cuniberti's One Mic recordings.

 

[Godataloss]

I've got a couple tube amps that I'll never sell. I don't use them a lot, but I do not have a similar attachment to any of my solid state gear.

 

[Mikig]

I've got a couple tube amps that I'll never sell. I don't use them a lot, but I do not have a similar attachment to any of my solid state gear.

same for my Oto, always present since 1993…

 

[MattHooper]

Then I guess my taste is completely different because I like the artifacts to be clear and pristine. If I listen to unnatural sounds it´s exactly because they are unnatural. I enjoy the "disconfort" that sounds like Axis of Perdition or Red Harvest (more on the industrial than techno side) produce. As I´m typing this, I have a couple Pitchshifter old records playing, and I absolutely love their very raw, low fi approach of their first works.

Nothing wrong on your choices, because it boils down to how spicy you want your meal, from scorching to not at all. And all are good choices.

Totally cool! Taste is taste.

I have both a tube preamp and a benchmark LA4 solid state preamp. I’ve got my two preamp running through the LA4, so that with the press of a remote button, I can switch the tube preamp in and out of the chain. There are aspects I like of both.

I also sometimes run my two channel speakers with my AV receiver instead of my tube amps, and sometimes I borrow my friends Bryston 4B3 powerhouse, solid state amp, and I can enjoy what that bring to the table to. However, ultimately my taste tends to turn towards the tube presentation.

 

[DSJR]

What does musical even mean?

In my case, it's being able to more erasily follow melody lines, the harmomies and how they 'relate' to each other. Being able to more easily 'sing along' with songs (yes, even Elizabeth Fraser's Cocteau Twins 'lyrics' - Gawd bless her), which I have done since childhood although my singing voice, much like the rest of me now, has seem far better days

Added compression rather than limiting, may well enhance this feeling of 'musicality' and this could be a factor in so many 'audiophiles' still preferring vinyl with its band-limited and slightly compressed halo of sound in most cases.

 

[atmasphere]

Except, as you can see, we've now gone through several amps claimed to be "bright" where this was not the case. And the Tiger is one of them. And until just a few minutes ago, no more specific examples. But at least I found the distortion vs frequency at two power levels. Interesting that no more contemporary examples have been proposed.

Note my edit above.

The Tiger was bright; painfully so (but my hearing was a lot better back then). I don't know where you got the idea that it wasn't- not from me anyway. So was the Adcom GFA565- the one that is known for the bad electrolytics. I've not heard the other Adcoms and apparently they don't have DvsF rising, so I can't comment on them. It will be interesting if distortion is not why that amp sounded bright.

I've asked before, but it would be interesting if @pkane's software could simulate this effect. My memory is that you felt it wasn't possible.

Correct. According to Paul, he had a module that could do the DvsF thing, but it was not part of the release. So my contention is what it proved is that if distortion does not rise with frequency, you won't hear the difference between 0.001 or 0.01 or even 0.1.

And if that's really the case, it begs the question why the distortion spec is seen as so important...

 

[SIY]

I don't know where you got the idea that it wasn't- not from me anyway.

Since I never said that, I have no idea what you’re talking about. It never sounded bright to me, but it was horribly unstable design, so I didn’t live with it long term.

So using the 55 year old Tiger’s distortion vs frequency, are you ready to go to demonstrate your assertions? Name the cut and I’ll publicly post the files.

 

[SIY]

Or we could use your claimed "bright" GFA-565, which has the turnover at about 14kHz, putting the harmonics well above the human range.

Reference: https://www.stereophile.com/content/adcom-gfa-565-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

 

[mhardy6647]

Dowsing -- I cannot vouch for any place but New England, but (anecdotally) even in 2024 it seems de rigueur around here to employ a dowser when siting a new well.
We were 120 miles away when ours was put in (in 2011, give or take), so I don't know if one was used or not -- but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[SIY]

Dowsing -- I cannot vouch for any place but New England, but (anecdotally) even in 2024 it seems de rigueur around here to employ a dowser when siting a new well.
We were 120 miles away when ours was put in (in 2011, give or take), so I don't know if one was used or not -- but I wouldn't be surprised.

Randi's test of dowsing was highly amusing.

 

[MattHooper]

Randi's test of dowsing was highly amusing.

I grew up on sceptical inquirer, CSICOP, Skeptic magazine, and others. Randi was a hero.

(and it’s probably due to that that I didn’t fall for the crazier tweak stuff when I got into high-end audio in the 90s. Owning a tube app is about as tweaky as I get I figure.)