Are tubes more musical?

[genesisaudiorack]

So with those specs they will only be audibly flat between 60 hz and 7000 hz. The power may be lower at frequency extremes as well. So even the power rating may or may not be across the full bandwidth. Since they don't say one would suspect they don't maintain power in the highs and lows. All that before whatever the sure to be high output impedance does with the speakers in use (this due to no feedback). They may be pleasant to listen to in some cases, but hifi they are not.

i have heard, and this is sorta speculation, they the frequency response is much better than standard amps. i think they use a modified circuit that's very well balanced but i cant test that here as i dont have testing hardware for that.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

Mostly transformers. Building a good transformers is possible, but not cheap. Then I would say power. Transformers for high power are more expensive still. So SS could be for the same money, more powerful and have wider bandwidth at low enough distortion. It wasn't long until SS amps were available at power levels only extreme tube amps could match. I mean you own some big tube amps.

If only more companies used tubes in a circuit like David Berning's ZOTL design they might work out better. Then, they'd just sound like SS so maybe not. I wish Ralph would send some of his class D tube amps to Amir for testing. I'm betting he wouldn't. @atmasphere

this is where i sorta disagree. this not the only company that makes a viable clean improved circuit. there are many tube amp companies that have better circuit design than a cheap counterpart. dont expect my amps to behave like the dialogue or similar. i cannot test this here, but i can say without a doubt its very vibrant and clean even at loud volumes. if you think one company can do a great job with a circuit design on a tube amp im sure there are others. ayon is not a bad brand. its def not the most expensive but far from cheapest.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

Right, I thought it had something to do with the transformers.

As for behemoth tube amplifiers, like these from VAC:

My intuition is that the bigger and more complicated you make the amplifier and the more tubes, the more room there is for introducing noise or other issues into the signal. And might be more challenging that respect.

Would that be right? Or is it still trivial to design a really big powerful tube amplifier with low noise?

im sure it has to do with added technology, and revised/improved circuit designs. if they left that VAC amp with a 1950s basic circuit then im sure expanding that noisy circuit may introduce noise.

 

[SIY]

i like how you can change out the power rect tube, phase tubes, preamp tubes and power tubes and it always sounds a bit different. i can get slightly more rounded off sounding tubes and softer tones with a whole set of specific combinations of tubes with some more musicality at lower volumes.....of i can load up very snappy and crisp sounding tubes with more brightness and shimmer and snare drum boom - with a whole different set of tubes.

Cool story, bro.

 

[SIY]

That’s why there’s #2

Unintentional truth.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

Cool story, bro.

the original post was a simple question

are tubes more musical.

the answer is clearly yes. just not to you.

the other question is: can tubes limit the musicality in certain amps. and the answer to that is yes.

 

[Chrispy]

the original post was a simple question

are tubes more musical.

the answer is clearly yes. just not to you.

the other question is: can tubes limit the musicality in certain amps. and the answer to that is yes.

LOL clearly? Seriously? Musicality is one of the stupidest terms in audiophilia.

 

[SIY]

the answer is clearly yes. just not to you.

Nor anyone else who has done any actual listening tests.

 

[Blumlein 88]

i have heard, and this is sorta speculation, they the frequency response is much better than standard amps. i think they use a modified circuit that's very well balanced but i cant test that here as i dont have testing hardware for that.

Sorry, facts disagree with you. If they meet the claim, they are not flat across the audible band. With no feedback they'll not be flat with any speaker other than some Magnepans due to interaction with the speaker load. So whatever circuit they use is neither transparent nor superior to others who achieve more with tubes. There is nothing extraordinary for tubes with transformers in the performance of this amp. No NFB is just a dumb design decision. The frequency response of this amp will be a chameleon depending upon the loudspeaker to which it is connected.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

LOL clearly? Seriously? Musicality is one of the stupidest terms in audiophilia.

agreed

 

[SIY]

No NFB is just a dumb design decision.

It's also usually a lie, as an examination of the schematics will generally show.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It's also usually a lie, as an examination of the schematics will generally show.

I'm assuming they mean no global negative feedback. Not easy to design one without other local feedback in the design. Which is something they count on customers not knowing the difference.

 

[Blumlein 88]

this is where i sorta disagree. this not the only company that makes a viable clean improved circuit. there are many tube amp companies that have better circuit design than a cheap counterpart. dont expect my amps to behave like the dialogue or similar. i cannot test this here, but i can say without a doubt its very vibrant and clean even at loud volumes. if you think one company can do a great job with a circuit design on a tube amp im sure there are others. ayon is not a bad brand. its def not the most expensive but far from cheapest.

I'm not sure how to characterize modern tube amps in current times. Most use old circuits to sell the myth and mystique. Sometimes over simplified old circuits that other than the big iron and other pretties aren't much better than overgrown overbuilt tabletop radios. Among the old circuits those McIntosh used (and use now) were among the better. The old Harman Kardon Citation tube amps were mighty good too. Most tube amps now are designed to have a sound. Fidelity isn't the goal. Some subjective idea of musical or pleasing or superior that somehow always fails to include high performance with regards to fidelity, but things like no feedback, single ended or direct heated or the magic best tube (300B, 211 etc). There is a whole market on selling the idea.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

I'm not sure how to characterize modern tube amps in current times. Most use old circuits to sell the myth and mystique. Sometimes over simplified old circuits that other than the big iron and other pretties aren't much better than overgrown overbuilt tabletop radios. Among the old circuits those McIntosh used (and use now) were among the better. The old Harman Kardon Citation tube amps were mighty good too. Most tube amps now are designed to have a sound. Fidelity isn't the goal. Some subjective idea of musical or pleasing or superior that somehow always fails to include high performance with regards to fidelity, but things like no feedback, single ended or direct heated or the magic best tube (300B, 211 etc). There is a whole market on selling the idea.

i hope one day the magic will reveal itself as a wizard poping out of my speakers.

 

[JSmith]

negative feedback

Any good audiophile knows negative feedback is... negative, so can't have any of that negativity of course for the purest audio chain.


JSmith

 

[Jimbob54]

the original post was a simple question

are tubes more musical.

the answer is clearly yes. just not to you.

the other question is: can tubes limit the musicality in certain amps. and the answer to that is yes.

Ok, you've expressed your view but on this forum we need more than opinion.

Going forwards please post more than anecdote and opinion. Properly conducted listening tests or measurements . Thanks

 

[antcollinet]

each and cost $22,000

It's going to be difficult to convince someone with that much sunk, that they've bought a lemon.

 

[solderdude]

the original post was a simple question

are tubes more musical.

Only when you tap on them in the pace of the music.

the answer is clearly yes. just not to you.

The answer is clearly 'no, it is just perceived that way to some aficionados' as the term 'musical' is nonsensical.
Well .. if you tap on the tubes in the rhythm of the music it becomes a musical instrument.

When you mean musicality is another word for 'colored in a to the observer pleasant way' then the word 'musicality' makes some sense

the other question is: can tubes limit the musicality in certain amps. and the answer to that is yes.

By this I assume you try to say: can tubes limit the fidelity in certain amps. ... then yes. In well designed amps they won't.

The only evidence is missing is a well performed listening test. Yours all seem to be sighted or does not conform to the 'well performed' criteria.

This is going to be a continuous yes-no debate.

Distortion doesn't have to be of the harmonic type.
If the transformers impedance problems into the speaker load is causing a alteration of the inputs frequency response, that is also a distortion of the input.
Anything about the output that doesn't equal a "straight wire with gain" is distortion.

Yep, linear distortion distortion when bad enough can lead to coloration of sound which in most cases might also be load dependent.
This can actually make an amp sound 'nicer' on certain transducers and certain recordings and to certain individuals for sure.
It is not perceived as 'distortion' but as coloration.

With 'sounds distorted' I mean copious amounts of non-linear distortion of whatever origin that makes the sound less pleasant.
For that to happen an amp would have to be clipping or defective or really, really poorly designed.

My view on distortion numbers:

The point I was trying to get across is that certain types of distortion (be them linear or non-linear) would have to become severe enough to reach audible thresholds.
These audible thresholds also differ in different situations.
The word 'distortion' has a negative ring to it (pun intended) where for the technical minded it only means reduced signal fidelity.
Signal fidelity can be lessened but not audible so is not seen as 'distortion' to non-technical persons.
Then there is the range where 'distortion' does become audible but not sound degrading (for instance mostly linear type) which may sound euphonic to some.

Another aspect of non-linear distortion is that it is amplitude dependent and there is also an increased masking effect at higher SPL.
When amplifiers reach potentially reject-able amounts of distortion this only happens at higher amplitudes and may well remain far below audible thresholds for the entire listening time except during (short lived) peaks. Well made recordings (no loudness wars type of compression/limiting) may only have short momentary peaks adding some harmonics at that short moment which may well be masked at higher SPL or the transducer may even add more.
It is one of the main reasons why, when music is used to determine how high distortion may become, the numbers are usually much higher than when a single (or dual) tone is used as stimulus.

Even then it depends on the harmonic profile (spectrum) frequencies and SPL.

Then another confounding factor is the fact that per channel there is only 1 varying voltage over time. That signal is an addition of all the mixed instruments/voices and peaks can occur when the momentarily loudest signals of them (with the lowest frequencies being the largest contributors) happen to be there at the same time. This is usually only at short moments. The rest of the time the signal fidelity can be below any audible thresholds and that's where one listens to. This can (but does not have to be) as short as a 'tick' in a vinyl record but not as violent. Some brains ignore, others may not.

The brain is the final piece of the puzzle.

'Musicality' is simply the wrong word as it is not related to signal fidelity but a constructed of the brain.

The words 'musical' and 'musicality', when used on ASR, should be replaced by 'xxxxxx' when typed by a poster.
Of course ... there would have to be some AI used to flag (intentional) misspelling like 'musicaI' or 'musica|' etc... the word should be banned including the one using it.

 

[Sal1950]

'Musicality' is simply the wrong word as it is not related to signal fidelity but a constructed of the brain.

The words 'musical' and 'musicality', when used on ASR, should be replaced by 'xxxxxx' when typed by a poster.

Maybe,
Word definitions can be a funny thing, specially when we live in the distorted world of "High End" snake-oil and marketing.
OTOH, we do all know what the reproduction of music means, the music is that which was recorded onto the source medium.
So when it comes to any part of the reproduction chain, the most "musical" component has to be that which delivers the source in the most accurate way without debate.
Any time we let any regard for "sounds good to me" enter the evaluation, without concern for the science of the products actual performance in the chain, we've lost all hope for "musicality" in the reproduction. It all becomes just a fun house mirror that reflects an image that makes us smile.

 

[Willem]

Time to close this thread full of "alternative facts". Amplifiers are a solved problem, and tubes mostly measure badly, hence sound worse, cost more, and waste energy.