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Are tubes more musical?

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It is mostly/usually frequency response if there is a sound.
So true.
has anyone perfected a solid state tube yet?
Hehe.
Yeah, that Pass Amp Camp has many of the features of tube amps, particularly the high output impedance and resulting interaction with a speaker's impedance.
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This FR change is audible.

The distortion is really not audible until the amp clips, at that point so many things are going wrong, harmonic distortion being only one aspect. I do recommend taking that Klippel hearing test to appraise yourself of what level of sensitivity we actually have. Try listening to it with speakers off-axis to see if you can hear even lower levels of distortion. Compare the results to actual tube and solid state amplifier's distortion. It is quite educational, and a bit humbling...

Bob Carver claimed to do make his amps sound like tubes, but it was a bit of a show, I firmly believe he was taking advantage of our inability to measure with our hearing... The test was set up in a way that only the final result (where nobody could tell the difference) is reasonably valid, the initial sessions where people heard all of the differences between his amps and tubes were all done sighted, woo woo. :D
 
Stick a 1 to 2 ohm resistor in series with the speaker and the solid state amp and the sound will come closer to how a tube amp sounds, except of course for the added distortion that won't be there due to the tube amplifier. Speaker gets to flap the breeze a little, allowing for a more relaxed sound, hey?
 
For an amp to sound 'distorted' it would either have to be clipping or defective.
Distortion doesn't have to be of the harmonic type.
If the transformers impedance problems into the speaker load is causing a alteration of the inputs frequency response, that is also a distortion of the input.
Anything about the output that doesn't equal a "straight wire with gain" is distortion.
 
tubes have something to do with multiple dynamics and the output sound.
transformers.
circuit design.
built in features.
i suppose it can be a few different things.

you are trying to nit pick top alienate my opinion. its okay you can insult me and it doesnt hurt my feelings. i have thick skin.
No ones trying to insult you,
The biggest issue here is that you don't know what your talking about.

has anyone perfected a solid state tube yet?
Measurably perfect, no
Audibly perfect, as in fully transparent to the input, yes, for a few decades now.
 
has anyone perfected a solid state tube yet?
So I'm guessing you think a tube does something good an SS amp cannot. I've done some series amplifier testing. You take an amp, give a loudspeaker like load at the output, attenuate that output to unity gain and feed it to an amp connected to speakers. You can switch the amp under test in and out with a pair of wires. See how the sound changes. When I've done that with a triode tube amp under test the result at the speakers sounded like a tube amp. Demonstrating two things. That an SS amp can fully reproduce the signal of a tube amp. There are no abilities of the tube amp beyond the SS amp. Secondly that the tube amp was a departure from fidelity. An additive coloration. When I tried that with good SS amps under test there was no difference vs wire.
 
So I'm guessing you think a tube does something good an SS amp cannot. I've done some series amplifier testing. You take an amp, give a loudspeaker like load at the output, attenuate that output to unity gain and feed it to an amp connected to speakers. You can switch the amp under test in and out with a pair of wires. See how the sound changes. When I've done that with a triode tube amp under test the result at the speakers sounded like a tube amp. Demonstrating two things. That an SS amp can fully reproduce the signal of a tube amp. There are no abilities of the tube amp beyond the SS amp. Secondly that the tube amp was a departure from fidelity. An additive coloration. When I tried that with good SS amps under test there was no difference vs wire.
only in specific ways but not in a absolute opinion of such. i did mention ive heard some 20k solid state mono blocks that were great. but ive also heard several solid state amps i just didnt like. they sounded neutered and not the same. within my budget and my journey recently since ive been reacquiring gear(i lost all my old gear in a forest fire) i took some time to listen to "run of the mill solid state" and for some reason i chose a prima - but over time i noticed it wasnt a great amp, well maybe at lower volumes. but it really broke up louder you get. i was searching for something to replace it so i could enjoy loud music. i still didnt find a solid state one i wanted. so i bit the bullet and got the ayons. i dont think they are something magical in nature. but they do sound good, and very vibrant at high volumes. what a strategic selection of tubes does for me, is something i just havent encountered with solid state. if i want to dull out my tube amp i can get softer sounding tubes. you call this just a eq of sorts by using tubes while suggesting get solid state and use a eq between or from a streamer. if i find a amp that i think sounds better than my ayons i will be very interested in making the switch.
 
only in specific ways but not in a absolute opinion of such. i did mention ive heard some 20k solid state mono blocks that were great. but ive also heard several solid state amps i just didnt like. they sounded neutered and not the same. within my budget and my journey recently since ive been reacquiring gear(i lost all my old gear in a forest fire) i took some time to listen to "run of the mill solid state" and for some reason i chose a prima - but over time i noticed it wasnt a great amp, well maybe at lower volumes. but it really broke up louder you get. i was searching for something to replace it so i could enjoy loud music. i still didnt find a solid state one i wanted. so i bit the bullet and got the ayons. i dont think they are something magical in nature. but they do sound good, and very vibrant at high volumes. what a strategic selection of tubes does for me, is something i just havent encountered with solid state. if i want to dull out my tube amp i can get softer sounding tubes. you call this just a eq of sorts by using tubes while suggesting get solid state and use a eq between or from a streamer. if i find a amp that i think sounds better than my ayons i will be very interested in making the switch.
You can do whatever you wish and enjoy of course. Your amps are likely not transparent. So you are unlikely to find a good SS amp that sounds like them as such amps are transparent. There are better ways to get the sound, but likely nothing will convince you as long as you are doing sighted listening evaluations. The sight and story of the amp will control your perception beyond just the actual sound. I already know all the objections you'll have to this. It is what it is. Reading some of the claims of Ayon I see lots that is not correct at all. The ideas about triode, vs pentode, vs ultra-linear vs their apparent reference which is SETs. It is not correct technically, logically or according to the sound such devices produce.
 
i cannot identify any distortion especially at loud volumes. i have repeatedly said, i have encountered numerous solid state amps and they sounded dull and neutered. not sure how else to explain how i didn't like solid state sound.

There is only Frequency Response (including output impedance distorted FR), Distortion, and Noise. Which of these do you think departs from high fidelity in your tube amp to make it sound different do you think?
 
only in specific ways but not in a absolute opinion of such. i did mention ive heard some 20k solid state mono blocks that were great. but ive also heard several solid state amps i just didnt like. they sounded neutered and not the same. within my budget and my journey recently since ive been reacquiring gear(i lost all my old gear in a forest fire) i took some time to listen to "run of the mill solid state" and for some reason i chose a prima - but over time i noticed it wasnt a great amp, well maybe at lower volumes. but it really broke up louder you get. i was searching for something to replace it so i could enjoy loud music. i still didnt find a solid state one i wanted. so i bit the bullet and got the ayons. i dont think they are something magical in nature. but they do sound good, and very vibrant at high volumes. what a strategic selection of tubes does for me, is something i just havent encountered with solid state. if i want to dull out my tube amp i can get softer sounding tubes. you call this just a eq of sorts by using tubes while suggesting get solid state and use a eq between or from a streamer. if i find a amp that i think sounds better than my ayons i will be very interested in making the switch.
Your answers recently read as though you are actually preferring the sound of clipping/distorting tubes over clipping/distorting solid state. I'm used to this idea - it used to be called "valve watts" in the UK press, where low powered amps got run outside of their performance envolope, and the mistreated valves/tubes sounded less harsh.

Here's a tip then. Try some good, and very powerful class D (or good AB) amps and see what your speakers and system sound like when the amp stays inside its performance envelope all the way up: and test blind if you can. I can't guarantee you'll prefer that to the tubes, but at least you would be closer to knowing what the rest of us go on about.
 
Your answers recently read as though you are actually preferring the sound of clipping/distorting tubes over clipping/distorting solid state. I'm used to this idea - it used to be called "valve watts" in the UK press, where low powered amps got run outside of their performance envolope, and the mistreated valves/tubes sounded less harsh.

Here's a tip then. Try some good, and very powerful class D (or good AB) amps and see what your speakers and system sound like when the amp stays inside its performance envelope all the way up: and test blind if you can. I can't guarantee you'll prefer that to the tubes, but at least you would be closer to knowing what the rest of us go on about.
Hello... The thing about trying tube amps is that the ones with output impedance issues that contour the frequency response and give you some sort of difference will all be different and so only the exact model of tube amp that you use would be up for comparasin with any sort of expectation that they will sound similar. I say similar because even 2 of the same model of tube amps may sound different.
 
I tried to do a little homework on his Ayon Epsilon Evo mono blocks.
The manufacturer will tell you very little about their measured performance that I could find. :(
Neither were there any reviews from anyone that might have even basically measured them.
A single FR response spec, (unspecified conditions); and what amounts to a boast that it uses 0 db negative feedback. :facepalm:
Oh and they weight 88lbs each and cost $22,000
Maybe we could get one sent to Amir to put on the bench and find out how good it really is?

Technical specifications (according to manufacturer)

Frequency range:
6 Hz – 70 kHz (-3 dB) | 5 Hz – 80 kHz (-6 dB)
Output:
• Pentode mode: 1 x 180 W
• Triode mode: 1 x 100 W
Input sensitivity (@ full power): 900 mV
S/N: 98 dB
Input impedance (1 kHz): 47 kΩ
NFB: 0 dB
Dimensions (W x D x H): 350 x 600 x 250 mm
Weight: 44 kg
 
I tried to do a little homework on his Ayon Epsilon Evo mono blocks.
The manufacturer will tell you very little about their measured performance that I could find. :(
Neither were there any reviews from anyone that might have even basically measured them.
A single FR response spec, (unspecified conditions); and what amounts to a boast that it uses 0 db negative feedback. :facepalm:
Oh and they weight 88lbs each and cost $22,000
Maybe we could get one sent to Amir to put on the bench and find out how good it really is?

Technical specifications (according to manufacturer)

Frequency range:
6 Hz – 70 kHz (-3 dB) | 5 Hz – 80 kHz (-6 dB)
Output:
• Pentode mode: 1 x 180 W
• Triode mode: 1 x 100 W
Input sensitivity (@ full power): 900 mV
S/N: 98 dB
Input impedance (1 kHz): 47 kΩ
NFB: 0 dB
Dimensions (W x D x H): 350 x 600 x 250 mm
Weight: 44 kg
So with those specs they will only be audibly flat between 60 hz and 7000 hz. The power may be lower at frequency extremes as well. So even the power rating may or may not be across the full bandwidth. Since they don't say one would suspect they don't maintain power in the highs and lows. All that before whatever the sure to be high output impedance does with the speakers in use (this due to no feedback). They may be pleasant to listen to in some cases, but hifi they are not.
 
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I think I once knew this, but I’ve forgotten if I did:

Aside from certain practical advantages, what were the technical advantages that allowed solid-state amplifier technology to surpass performance of tube amplification?

What holds tube amplification back from achieving the technical performance available with solid state? Do the transformers have something to do with it?
 
I think I once knew this, but I’ve forgotten if I did:

Aside from certain practical advantages, what were the technical advantages that allowed solid-state amplifier technology to surpass performance of tube amplification?

What holds tube amplification back from achieving the technical performance available with solid state? Do the transformers have something to do with it?
Mostly transformers. Building a good transformers is possible, but not cheap. Then I would say power. Transformers for high power are more expensive still. So SS could be for the same money, more powerful and have wider bandwidth at low enough distortion. It wasn't long until SS amps were available at power levels only extreme tube amps could match. I mean you own some big tube amps.

If only more companies used tubes in a circuit like David Berning's ZOTL design they might work out better. Then, they'd just sound like SS so maybe not. I wish Ralph would send some of his class D tube amps to Amir for testing. I'm betting he wouldn't. @atmasphere
 
Mostly transformers. Building a good transformers is possible, but not cheap. Then I would say power. Transformers for high power are more expensive still. So SS could be for the same money, more powerful and have wider bandwidth at low enough distortion. It wasn't long until SS amps were available at power levels only extreme tube amps could match. I mean you own some big tube amps.

If only more companies used tubes in a circuit like David Berning's ZOTL design they might work out better. Then, they'd just sound like SS so maybe not. I wish Ralph would send some of his class D tube amps to Amir for testing. I'm betting he wouldn't. @atmasphere

Right, I thought it had something to do with the transformers.

As for behemoth tube amplifiers, like these from VAC:

greg2.jpg


My intuition is that the bigger and more complicated you make the amplifier and the more tubes, the more room there is for introducing noise or other issues into the signal. And might be more challenging that respect.

Would that be right? Or is it still trivial to design a really big powerful tube amplifier with low noise?
 
Hello... The thing about trying tube amps is that the ones with output impedance issues that contour the frequency response and give you some sort of difference will all be different and so only the exact model of tube amp that you use would be up for comparasin with any sort of expectation that they will sound similar. I say similar because even 2 of the same model of tube amps may sound different.
That's correct, though maybe not as widely different as we might think in practice since the response contours as much to speaker impedance as anything else.

The distortion part of the equation will vary according to the tube amp design as well, and maybe more. However, the comparison I'm suggesting, with a powerful amp that stays inside its performance envelope at high volume levels, doesn't depend on the particular tube amp design in use. I'm talking here about an amp inside its performance envelope against one that is distorting - no matter in what way.
 
I tried to do a little homework on his Ayon Epsilon Evo mono blocks.
The manufacturer will tell you very little about their measured performance that I could find. :(
Neither were there any reviews from anyone that might have even basically measured them.
A single FR response spec, (unspecified conditions); and what amounts to a boast that it uses 0 db negative feedback. :facepalm:
Oh and they weight 88lbs each and cost $22,000
Maybe we could get one sent to Amir to put on the bench and find out how good it really is?

Technical specifications (according to manufacturer)

Frequency range:
6 Hz – 70 kHz (-3 dB) | 5 Hz – 80 kHz (-6 dB)
Output:
• Pentode mode: 1 x 180 W
• Triode mode: 1 x 100 W
Input sensitivity (@ full power): 900 mV
S/N: 98 dB
Input impedance (1 kHz): 47 kΩ
NFB: 0 dB
Dimensions (W x D x H): 350 x 600 x 250 mm
Weight: 44 kg
your specs are incorrect, those are the 2016 numbers. also they weight about 100lbs each. they are a little heavier than listed. ive included the current manual. but my model is updated so some locations of things in the back are different. to be fair per my review, yes they are about 24k for a pair. i bought one that came back from one of the audio shows for 16k for the pair.

they are now
AmplifierAyon Epsilon EVO
Class of OperationTriode* or Pentode mode, Class-A*
Tube ComplementKT150
Load Impedance4 & 8 Ohms
Bandwidth6Hz – 70kHz / – 3dB
Output Power / Pentode mode1 x 200W
Output Power / Triode mode1 x 140W
Frequency Response5 Hz – 80 kHz
Input Impedance at 1 kHz47KΩ
Input sensitivity900mV
S/N ratio at full power98 dB
NFB0dB
InputsRCA & XLR
Dimensions (WxDxH) cm35x60x25 cm
Weigh44kg
 

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