Are tubes more musical?

[Mulder]

Fair enough. Though again, this forum seems mostly comprised of people who have already learned that lesson… and yet continue to be fussing over measurements which just reiterate the same message over and over.

I can imagine why some folks might see that as a bit odd ?

So what do you suggest? That amir stops measuring and instead explains that from now ASR is Audio Subjective Revy - and becomes one of the series of nonsense forums? Or do you think he should just shut down because everything essential has already been said? Or all followers who repeat the same thing over and over should be blocked? Or what is your point? It's actually excellent to simply not visit ACR if you don't think there's anything sensible written in the forum.

 

[ahofer]

No

 

[MattHooper]

So what do you suggest? That amir stops measuring and instead explains that from now ASR is Audio Subjective Revy - and becomes one of the series of nonsense forums? Or do you think he should just shut down because everything essential has already been said? Or all followers who repeat the same thing over and over should be blocked? Or what is your point? It's actually excellent to simply not visit ACR if you don't think there's anything sensible written in the forum.

I was agreeing with your point that the constant measuring of sonically transparent equipment could be seen as a repetition of the same message “ See! It all sounds the same (when properly deployed).” Which can be a counterpoint message to the subjectivist world where everything makes a sonic difference.

My question instead moved onto “ for those who have already understood that message for quite a while… why the ongoing interest in the measurements? Aren’t you going to just be getting the same message over and over that you already understand?”

I’m just prodding peoples motivations I guess. And obviously those are going to be individual motivations.

I personally don’t need to see yet another review telling me of yet another sonically transparent solid state amplifier. But I can see some other people enjoy knowing the measurements.

One of the main things I’ve got out of measurements of amplification, especially over the years at Stereophile, is seeing manufacturer specifications put to the test.
From what I have observed, this seems especially pertinent with tube amplifiers, which all too often don’t meet their power specifications. Does it apply as much to solid-state amplifiers? I’m not sure because I don’t follow those as much.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Just tuned a line-level DSP on a friend's high-end McIntosh system with JM-lab speakers this very evening.

All I can say - turntable, pre-amp with tubes and power amp with output transformers...... none of that really matters in comparison to frequency response and room acoustics.
Between his pre and power, I advised him to use a 2 input to 4 channel output DSP, that divide the stereo signal into his power amp and 2 subwoofers.
He's happy now, and I think those speakers play better than the original designer ever thought possible.

Subwoofers are a Klipsch R-121SW and a SVS 12" PC of some older version.... actually they just need enough SPL to follow the large JM's.... I tune the rest with measurements, since I know, very well, that it doesn't really matter overall what brand or type is used.

So fun when he has guests around, and they have no clue that there's a DSP running it all, and 2 "hidden" subwoofers. All they do is, look at the glowing tubes and rotating turntable- and enjoy the sound/music, coffee, cookies and nice company

I only adjusted for linear problems above 500Hz and then a few places below around 150Hz, where integration with subwoofers and room started to dominate.
Always have I done this manually and never really cared for auto-systems or what type of equipment people used. If they wanted a specific type of equipment, I only made them aware of certain limitations herein, but in general never pushed my personal agenda - unless they specifically wanted me to go deeper into the rabbit hole.

Sadly, I think tubes can only perform almost sonically equivalent or worse than any modern solution - never better - technically that is.
For looks and coziness... You might argue that they have a certain sentimental value... which is fine for personal reasons I guess.

 

[olieb]

I was agreeing with your point that the constant measuring of sonically transparent equipment could be seen as a repetition of the same message “ See! It all sounds the same (when properly deployed).”

But that was not Mulder's point, was it? Here is what he wrote:

ASR's measurements can be seen as a ritual where a basic message is repeated. These are objective facts. There is no other objective.

The "message" of the measurements is not so much about "all gear sounds the same", but that these measurements are the objective facts, and they matter. And of course measurements of gear Y cannot be replaced by measurements of gear X.

I just pulled up the first recent review I could find ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-element-iv-dac-hp-amp-with-eq-review.59002/ ) and checked. In the review there is no mentioning of "see, it sounds all the same" at all. Just the measurements and some enthusiasm about the results and the listening experience.
If I recall correctly it is very much the same in most reviews. There might be the occasional mentioning that some spurious distortion (jitter, IMD...) is below the threshold (of audibility), but that is not a major point of the reviews, unless of course there is (close to) audible distortion.
And in the comments it was not much different, only one(!) of the comments on the first two pages mentioned something like transparent/audibility, it was #16: "not quite SOTA DAC performance but still perfect well past the point of audibility"
There were on the other hand comments on design, look of the pcb, features, price, externes psu, land of manufacture, usability of DSP and so on.

Yet the point of "most electronics is audible transparent", "DACs sound the same" shows up the very moment someone comes up and claims the existence of (big) sonic differences because of (insert your favorite myth here), and that happens still quite regularly, proving you somewhat wrong.

 

[solderdude]

Why have an ongoing interest in seeing essentially the same result over and over?

ASR can provide independent measurements which some people enjoy reading about.
Other people can't get enough of subjective babble about the most expensive (tube) gear and how it 'sounds',
Others like to read about cars or cameras, watches or whatnot.

 

[MattHooper]

The "message" of the measurements is not so much about "all gear sounds the same", but that these measurements are the objective facts, and they matter. And of course measurements of gear Y cannot be replaced by measurements of gear X.

But the point of the objective facts derived from measurements of such gear is that they are routinely sonically transparent, and therefore, when used within their specs,
“ sonically the same.”

This is the rejoinder aimed at the subjective crowd who believe everything makes a sonic difference and at those who believe they are constantly hearing differences between what are in all likelihood sonically indistinguishable amplifiers.

I’m not talking about the obviously absurd caricature “ everything sounds the same,” but rather the obvious implications of sonically, transparent gear.

Speaking of which…

I just pulled up the first recent review I could find ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-element-iv-dac-hp-amp-with-eq-review.59002/ ) and checked. In the review there is no mentioning of "see, it sounds all the same" at all.

And yet Amir wrote: “Distortion is extremely low and no clipping at either impedance. So if you are hearing distortion, it is in the headphone, and not the amplifier.”

Which means it’s yet another amplification device that measures sonically neutral within its specs…. And if you replaced it with any other sonically neutral amp - which as far as I know, comprise just about all the solid state amps measured here! - “ it would sound the same.”

Which is why as you point out many comments also went to other features of the amplifier.

As I indicated before, if amplifier after amplifier measures sonically neutral, at what point do you say “ OK I get it, one amp is going to sound the same as the next one within its specs?”

How many more do you need to measure before you come to the conclusion, and the distortion measurements aren’t really that interesting, whereas the features and other characteristics are really the focus of interest?

And yet… many people here still seem to really care about seeing yet another set of measurements of a solid state amplifier or DAC (though I think there is the occasional rare DAC with audible distortion?)

An interest in seeing different speaker. measurements seems to be more understandable as those are always going to vary and audible ways. But when we are talking about essentially solved electronic problems, such as solid state amplification…. why still so much interest in the measurements?

(like I said, I think of course people can give different reasonable answers to this, I’m just making sure the point I was raising is clear).

 

[MattHooper]

ASR can provide independent measurements which some people enjoy reading about.
Other people can't get enough of subjective babble about the most expensive (tube) gear and how it 'sounds',
Others like to read about cars or cameras, watches or whatnot.

That’s cool. There are no wrong answers.

I think it’s still worthwhile to step back and ask questions like “ why are people interested in this?”

I already gave my own answer.

 

[MAB]

Fair enough. Though again, this forum seems mostly comprised of people who have already learned that lesson… and yet continue to be fussing over measurements which just reiterate the same message over and over.

I can imagine why some folks might see that as a bit odd ?

Many of us spend little time fussing over the SINAD of amps.
Or lengthy discussions of it.
You are at 5k words in this thread alone.
5% of the total posts.
Close to half of the total word count.
Not sure what constitutes fussing.
Many of us don't care, but you seem to be posting to draw people into fussing over the sound of amps. Wondering what is cause and effect here.

 

[Killingbeans]

Why have an ongoing interest in seeing essentially the same result over and over?

Because it's the only way to get a somewhat accurate representation of the current state of things.

A single data point gives you nothing... it's just a coin toss. Ten data points gives you something that might just be a fluke. 100 points give you something that could possibly be an emerging pattern. Etc. etc.

 

[MattHooper]

Because it's the only way to get a somewhat accurate representation of the current state of things.

A single data point gives you nothing... it's just a coin toss. Ten data points gives you something that might just be a fluke. 100 points give you something that could possibly be an emerging pattern. Etc. etc.

Fair enough. Though didn’t we have enough data, as well as theory and practice, to essentially conclude solicit amplifiers had reached neutrality long ago? I mean, that’s what classic “ objectivists” have been saying for many decades.

Again, I think the question is more focussed at those who already know this, in which case “ why do you care about seeing yet another set of measurements which is going to show you exactly exactly what you already expect?”

As I said, there’s obviously nothing wrong with being interested in measurements.
But I wonder how much of it is actually caring about how something measures versus just sort of being interested in measurements, generally speaking (and of course there’s nothing wrong with that). In other words; when it comes to measurements they consistently show certainly electronics are sonically indistinguishable… why remain interested in those measurements?

As I mentioned, I like to see manufactures specs tested. I also enjoy seeing manufacturer claims tested (for instance mini high-end manufacturer will make claims but having identified some barrier to more transparent sound which they have addressed and their design… and often enough the measurements show there’s nothing remarkable at all happening in their design, and even that they are mediocre and performance. That’s sort of fun and educational too. Like I said, anyone can have their own reasons… I was just prodding for peoples reasons.

 

[MAB]

Emphasis added.
Thanks for that.
I am interested- what is the illogical wordplay? I'm not trolling here- this was really something I didn't understand.

Consider you make a claim that someone else finds specious, unlikely, unreasonable, or just plain wrong. If that person disagrees with you, it’s not necessarily because that person is obsessed, overly preoccupied, focused on the object of the claim. You telling me about all of these sonic differences where I hear little or none doesn’t mean I am obsessed with the sound of my amps. And you are doing it over and over, which I understand since you make tube amps. But an occasional response from me to your postings doesn’t logically lead to the conclusion that I care that much about an amp’s sound. That’s the logical fallacy.

If I was taking my time to go over to goodsoundclub and telling them tubes have no sound, maybe you could call me obsessed with the sound of amps. Or just obsessed.

 

[MattHooper]

Many of us spend little time fussing over the SINAD of amps.
Or lengthy discussions of it.
You are at 5k words in this thread alone.
5% of the total posts.
Close to half of the total word count.

I feel stalked

(I’m one of the very few ASR members who uses tube amplification so naturally I’m somewhat drawn to this thread).

Many of us don't care, but you seem to be posting to draw people into fussing over the sound of amps.

Not at all!

The main lesson here is not to fuss over the sound of amps! (used within specified capabilities).

Which can bring forth the question: once you’ve learned the lesson that one solid state amp is almost for sure going to measure yet again sonically neutral… why do the measurements still hold someone’s interest?

As I said there are likely no wrong answers to this: individuals are going to have their own take. Nothing wrong with asking that is there?

I’m using a pointed type of question as a way of asking “ how would you answer somebody who is puzzled about your interest in the measurements if the results are ultimately so predictable (in the way that matters most - Sonic transparency) ?”

 

[Mulder]

(I’m one of the very few ASR members who uses tube amplification so naturally I’m somewhat drawn to this thread).

I use a tube-poweramp occasionally. Does it sound different than my Class D-Purifi poweramp? Yes, definitely I would say. Is it transparent? Hardly. On the contrary, it colors the sound. So what? Is the tubeamp more "musical"? Of course not. An amplifier is not musical. Only people are musical.

 

[MAB]

I feel stalked

No. It’s trivial to measure posts and word count. You do write long posts, often. It’s really obvious.

(I’m one of the very few ASR members who uses tube amplification so naturally I’m somewhat drawn to this thread).

Really?
I have tubes.
So do many members.
At one point in my life I had more tube gear than solid state.
I’m not drawn to solid state or tube threads. I was drawn to the Topping B100 thread, but not because of an obsession with measurements. More interested in quality and reliability, and honesty. Call me guilty of being like a moth drawn to flame on that one…

 

[Chris A]

What is it that I’m hearing in my tube preamp and tubed headphone amp that is so romantic, warm, soft around the edges, and smooth, even syrupy sometimes? I’m not talking about hybrid amps or tube buffers. (My headphone amp is an OTL design, my preamp has no transistors in the audio circuit.) Do tubes enhance dynamics? They seem to create a feeling of space and holographic imaging.

See Tubes and Digital Audio.

It turns out the the human hearing system is (apparently) sensitive to room-loudspeaker effects or headphone-eardrum bounce effects--even down to -50 to -60 db from the signal level.

So what you're mostly hearing is variable reverberation effects dependent on the loudspeaker/headphone efficiency, the amplifier's output impedance, and the tendency of the tubes themselves to be microphonic.

There are other effects of using amplifiers with high output impedance (relative to loudspeaker input impedance), but the major effect appears to be loudspeaker/headphone microphonics and amplifier output impedance more or less matching loudspeaker/headphone input impedance.

By the way, these effects are not in the input (music) signal, so by definition, these effects are classed as distortion.

Chris

 

[MAB]

I feel stalked

No. It’s trivial to measure posts and word count. You do write long posts, often. It’s really obvious.

(I’m one of the very few ASR members who uses tube amplification so naturally I’m somewhat drawn to this thread).

Really?
I have tubes.
So do many members.
At one point in my life I had more tube gear than solid state.
I’m not drawn to solid state or tube threads.

I occasionally get drawn into threads like the Topping B100 thread, but not because of an obsession with measurements. More interested in quality and reliability, and honesty. Call me guilty of being like a moth drawn to flame on that one…

 

[MattHooper]

I use a tube-poweramp occasionally. Does it sound different than my Class D-Purifi poweramp? Yes, definitely I would say. Is it transparent? Hardly. On the contrary, it colors the sound. So what? Is the tubeamp more "musical"? Of course not. An amplifier is not musical. Only people are musical.

as I’ve said “ musical” is not a term that I am promoting myself.

But on the other hand, whether an amplifier or Soundsystem is “ musical” depends on what somebody is meaning by that term.

A “musical” sound system could be one that reproduces sound in a way that prioritizes the enjoyment and emotional connection of a certain listener over strict technical precision or analytical detail. And in principle, the person could talk about the objective performance aspects that for him/her aid that musical connection.

Or one could talk about “musical” in one dictionary sense “having a pleasant sound; melodious or tuneful.” There has often been an association with musical as being
“ pleasant to the ear. “

In which case someone might use that term where one system may seem to better allow reproduce music to have those qualities, versus another system that may have forms of distortion that cause recordings to have a “ screetchier, harsher quality that is less “musical” .

You and I may prefer different words for such descriptions, but as long as somebody can be somewhat clear about what they are getting at… language and communication is flexible for a reason.

 

[MattHooper]

No. It’s trivial to measure posts and word count. You do write long posts, often. It’s really obvious.

Really?
I have tubes.
So do many members.
At one point in my life I had more tube gear than solid state.
I’m not drawn to solid state or tube threads. I was drawn to the Topping B100 thread, but not because of an obsession with measurements. More interested in quality and reliability, and honesty. Call me guilty of being like a moth drawn to flame on that one…

Totally understandable! Thanks!

Like I mentioned, I’m more “ drawn to the flame” when some name brands are being measured, to see whether they really have the engineering chops ascribed to them (either either by marketing or reputation).

And especially with tube amplifiers I have found measurements offer really valuable information because of how often they don’t seem to measure up to their rated power specs. That kind of stuff is certainly good to know if you are looking to use those amplifiers with specific speakers.

*bro fist* on having tubes!

 

[Soria Moria]

My only experience with valves was when I bought a Schiit Valhalla 2 in my subjective phase years back to use with my HD800S. When I first tried it I was tremendously disappointed because nothing stuck out as different to me. Some days later I plugged the headphone back into my SS amp (Singxer SA-1) and felt like it sounded much better. I would not put much trust on that impression at all due to all the biases, placebo, different volume etc. and because it wasn't meant to be a test. But after that I quickly sold the Valhalla 2.