Are tubes more musical?

[GXAlan]

How loud do people need to listen for “serious listening” ?

Greater than 85 dB can cause hearing damage if sustained, although short term bursts and lower frequency bursts might be OK.

But the real question isn’t loudness but distance to listening position

Poll: What is your listening distance? (Fall/Winter 2024)

What’s your listening distance? If you have multiple systems, pick all that apply. (Used at least once a week) We have had previous polls in the past but let’s sample the membership again. Feel free to comment with typical SPL or details about your systems. Since many of us have headphones...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mhardy6647]

85 dB is indeed plenty -- but why make the amplifier do the work? At the end of the day, air needs to be excited by a tranduscer of some sort. Everything upstream of the transducing elements themselves is just a means to an end.


That is what I like about 100-ish dB sensitivity for a loudspeaker.

 

[Todd68]

Is there an accurate watt meter I can buy? It would be interesting to see just how much of the power I am using from the amp.

Fosi Audio LC30 VU Meter Amplifier Speaker Selector​

I found this, it also allows the use of two amps and two sets of speakers.

 

[Todd68]

Is there an accurate watt meter I can buy? It would be interesting to see just how much of the power I am using from the amp.

Fosi Audio LC30 VU Meter Amplifier Speaker Selector​

I found this, it also allows the use of two amps and two sets of speakers.

After some research, It seems this thing isn’t accurate enough to be useful. I don’t need a switch box and rather not add extra parts into the signal path just to look at meters.

 

[Todd68]

85 dB is indeed plenty -- but why make the amplifier do the work? At the end of the day, air needs to be excited by a tranduscer of some sort. Everything upstream of the transducing elements themselves is just a means to an end.


That is what I like about 100-ish dB sensitivity for a loudspeaker.

Big horn speakers aren’t on my list to try, so I’ll never experience what this could offer, in my home anyway. I wouldn’t mind hearing a system like that though.

 

[Todd68]

Pete Millet's site is a great resource.


It strikes me that early solid state amps (mostly germanium or early silicon that no-one takes seriously nowadays) that used significant coupling capacitors in the Voltage and driver circuits also suffer blocking distortion- IOW its a function of coupling capacitors rather than tube amps generally. Its far more common in tube amps because they were often built to a budget which precludes the B- supply you'd need if you were direct-coupling.

Just for fun I am building arguably the worst of any kind of amplifier technology, a pair of SETs. My plan is direct-coupling the driver to the output tube, the use of the Ultraphath circuit, and probably loop feedback fed to the grid of the input tube. I'm of the opinion that SETs have only about 20-25% usable power before distortion causes them to sound 'dynamic'; I'm also of the opinion that 90% of the time when audiophiles use the word 'dynamics' you can replace that word with 'distortion' without changing the meaning of the conversation. So I'm interested to see what happens when feedback is properly applied. Yeah, its silly, but I have the parts laying around and its fun.

Regarding that, IMO 'fun' is really what tubes are about when it comes down to it. More so if you are a DIY type...

That’s interesting, when I disabled the NFB on my 300B amp it sounded more dynamic. It increased the gain 8db which made the gain comparable to my sold state amps. The tube amp sounds (to me anyway) at least as good or even more dynamic than the solid state 200 watt mono blocks at normal listening levels. But there’s more of a sense of realism, vocals sound fuller and more engaging, and I can hear more details. And it’s not muddy sounding or seem to lose control as someone put it. I don’t listen to very complex music, like orchestral so maybe that’s part of it. Also, maybe more detail or realism is just a wrong assumption from me and it’s just the added distortion?

Solid state amplification distortion, if run into is horrible that’s why large amounts of feedback is used to decrease it, pretty much eliminate it. Tube amp distortion is second harmonic it’s a frequency double the original sound which some say adds depth or richness to the sound. So it’s less accurate in a technical sense, but some people find it more enjoyable. If someone is completely stuck on evaluating an amp’s ability to sound good from distortion measurements alone than a tube amp won’t ever cross their mind as something worth while to try.

 

[Mikig]

in my small room, I have a tubes amplifier. I'll just tell you that it drives two 4 ohm speakers. 81dB sensitivity. But it's my experimentation of the period. They are two bookshelf speakers, not large and with drivers that are all in all normal in size. With the volume at 10 o'clock, two meters away, where I have the armchair, from the speakers, my phone's sound level meter detects an average of 79dB and a peak of 91. and that's already quite annoying. Normally when I listen in the evening, the volume is lower so as not to disturb my family. Subjectively it sounds great, so much so that I'm almost no longer using my system in the large room. So, a tubes amp easily drives even insensitive speakers with a more than satisfactory result. And to think that it all started as a test….

 

[Todd68]

in my small room, I have a tubes amplifier. I'll just tell you that it drives two 4 ohm speakers. 81dB sensitivity. But it's my experimentation of the period. They are two bookshelf speakers, not large and with drivers that are all in all normal in size. With the volume at 10 o'clock, two meters away, where I have the armchair, from the speakers, my phone's sound level meter detects an average of 79dB and a peak of 91. and that's already quite annoying. Normally when I listen in the evening, the volume is lower so as not to disturb my family. Subjectively it sounds great, so much so that I'm almost no longer using my system in the large room. So, a tubes amp easily drives even insensitive speakers with a more than satisfactory result. And to think that it all started as a test….

I have subs and high pass the amp at around 60hz, so it saves some headroom. How much I don’t know, but the lowest bass octaves eat up power.

 

[RickS]

Unfortunately no. I've been dealing with a family issue and the business has been really busy recently, so I've not had time for stuff like this. Hoping to soon though- this has gone on too long.

Sorry to hear and hope things are getting better!

Since you are clearly experienced and have been in the amplifier business for decades, can we expect you to submit an amp or two for Amir to test? I know we have some serious tube amp members, and I am very curious. If not a tube amp, maybe your Class D implementation?

 

[SIY]

Unfortunately no. I've been dealing with a family issue and the business has been really busy recently, so I've not had time for stuff like this. Hoping to soon though- this has gone on too long.

Have you given this a preliminary listen yet?

 

[atmasphere]

Have you given this a preliminary listen yet?

On my desktop yes. I really don't hear a difference there but my desktop is not the most impressive system around. I want to do it on the shop system but the computer we use for that is an older power book or some such. Its slow. So I'm wondering if it needs to be replaced or not.

 

[SIY]

On my desktop yes. I really don't hear a difference there but my desktop is not the most impressive system around. I want to do it on the shop system but the computer we use for that is an older power book or some such. Its slow. So I'm wondering if it needs to be replaced or not.

How do you play CDs? It can be burned. I mean, you have a recording label, you produce CDs, it seems like you have the capability to play FLAC files.

 

[pinger]

Listening to tube amps in my mind is similar to comparing a room with a smoky haze in it vs a room with clean air. But hey if thats what you like

 

[SIY]

Listening to tube amps in my mind is similar to comparing a room with a smoky haze in it vs a room with clean air. But hey if thats what you like

A good tube amp will not have any audible "haze." Emphasis on "good"- amps that are engineered rather than designed.

 

[atmasphere]

How do you play CDs? It can be burned. I mean, you have a recording label, you produce CDs, it seems like you have the capability to play FLAC files.

I have a recording operation but never produced CDs myself. The studio isn't in the same place as my shop where we make amps and preamps and its all analog. I just have to get this sorted out here.

One thing that has occurred to me though... If the distortion really turns out to be inaudible (as brightness), why be concerned about it to the degree we often see on this forum?

Listening to tube amps in my mind is similar to comparing a room with a smoky haze in it vs a room with clean air. But hey if thats what you like

SIY is right. If you have a good tube amp it won't 'sound' 'hazy'. A good one easily challenges a good solid state amp in subjective areas like imaging, depth (IOW stereo effect as described by Blumlein, one of the creators of stereo) and so on.

 

[SIY]

If the distortion really turns out to be inaudible (as brightness), why be concerned about it to the degree we often see on this forum?

I will admit that it's inaudible to me, but I never claimed that the Adcom was "bright." That series of amps always seemed to do exactly what I want an amp to do, make a small signal larger without changing it to an audible extent.

 

[Blumlein 88]

One thing that has occurred to me though... If the distortion really turns out to be inaudible (as brightness), why be concerned about it to the degree we often see on this forum?

Were you not the one who brings in the idea that such distortion is audible when most here think it is not? The one who says Adcom's are bright because of the harmonic distribution. The one who says levels of very low distortion have audible consequences because of the harmonic profile and rising distortion at high frequencies. Was that not you? Have you not made that point in almost every interview I've ever read of you by multiple publications? A point you have pointed out at every opportunity for more than 15 years.

 

[atmasphere]

Were you not the one who brings in the idea that such distortion is audible when most here think it is not? The one who says Adcom's are bright because of the harmonic distribution. The one who says levels of very low distortion have audible consequences because of the harmonic profile and rising distortion at high frequencies. Was that not you? Have you not made that point in almost every interview I've ever read of you by multiple publications? A point you have pointed out at every opportunity for more than 15 years.

Yes- that was me except for the 15 years part. And your point is??

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes- that was me except for the 15 years part. And your point is??

The point is your post implies there is a surprising amount of concern seen in this forum regarding distortion. Yet the forum has no outsized concern with distortion. You however have commented on the issue for years. You have an outsized claim that miniscule amounts of higher order distortion are audible. That slightly rising distortion with frequency is heard. That they trick the human hearing system into hearing brightness and or loudness. Amounts that would appear by all credible information to be inaudible. No it is not the forum with some fixation on distortion at low levels. It is an unsupported claim you make repeatedly. That is the point.

 

[atmasphere]

The point is your post implies there is a surprising amount of concern seen in this forum regarding distortion. Yet the forum has no outsized concern with distortion. You however have commented on the issue for years. You have an outsized claim that miniscule amounts of higher order distortion are audible. That slightly rising distortion with frequency is heard. That they trick the human hearing system into hearing brightness and or loudness. Amounts that would appear by all credible information to be inaudible. No it is not the forum with some fixation on distortion at low levels. It is an unsupported claim you make repeatedly. That is the point.

You are sidestepping my question. We all know that I claimed and claim most of what you're saying in this quote. That has nothing to do with the question I asked.

So I'll try again: I've noticed that on this site in particular low distortion is held in high regard. But at the same time it seemed to be acknowledged that it generally isn't audible anyway. So what I'm asking is why is there an obvious emphasis on distortion? It seems a bit contradictory to me.