Are tubes more musical?

[atmasphere]

@atmasphere have you downloaded these yet?

Yes. My desktop is a different machine from that in the shop system. Its also a different OS- I'm on Linux and the shop is an old Mac. So I have to set it up with the the comparitor program whose name I've forgotten while typing this. Then I can plug in the thumbdrive and see wut up.

 

[ajramirez]

Even solid state musical instrument amps have come a long way in recent years. I have guitar playing buddies whom I never would have dreamed of switching to solid state amps doing just that. From vintage Fender Deluxe and Princeton amps, serious, mature, professional jazz and blues guys, switching to Quilters. To quote one, “I’ll probably never own another Fender.” I was floored, but they do sound excellent.

I just placed an order for a Quilter Aviator Cub to see what the fuss is all about.

 

[SIY]

Yes. My desktop is a different machine from that in the shop system. Its also a different OS- I'm on Linux and the shop is an old Mac. So I have to set it up with the the comparitor program whose name I've forgotten while typing this. Then I can plug in the thumbdrive and see wut up.

Have you had a chance to do some listening to see if your "brightness" claims have any reality behind them?

 

[atmasphere]

Have you had a chance to do some listening to see if your "brightness" claims have any reality behind them?

Unfortunately no. I've been dealing with a family issue and the business has been really busy recently, so I've not had time for stuff like this. Hoping to soon though- this has gone on too long.

 

[deanznz]

Amirm once wrote

"For me, I listened to low wattage tube amplifier driving horns at CES in a massive room which I cannot replicate with my Salon 2 speakers and massive amplification. This was the system and demo:"

now maybe you are wondering if Amirm meant he can not replicate that systems baddness..... or its goodness

.

 

[MAB]

Amirm once wrote

"For me, I listened to low wattage tube amplifier driving horns at CES in a massive room which I cannot replicate with my Salon 2 speakers and massive amplification. This was the system and demo:"

now maybe you are wondering if Amirm meant he can not replicate that systems baddness..... or its goodness

.

He posted that in a thread about the dynamics of high efficiency speakers. The post was about speakers. And the fact that high efficiency speakers have great dynamics even driven by a low power tube amp. Here is the actual link.

Do high-efficiency speakers really have better 'dynamics'?

A very experienced audiophile on another forum recently asserted that high-efficiency speakers were inherently more dynamic than other types. By high-efficiency I believe he meant >92 dB sensitivity; by "dynamic" I believe he meant more brilliant response to transient signals. Do hi-eff...

www.audiosciencereview.com

He goes on to mention several JBL with similar dynamics, no tubes. It’s nothing to do with musical tube amps, it’s about high efficiency speakers.

 

[Waxx]

Those speakers are not that high sensitive and don't have much dynamics. The "woofer" is a Fostex FE208EZ, wich is an 8" fullrange driver with 1.25mm xmax and a sensivity (in reality) of about 93dB. i know that driver. They use it hear with a mid and a tweeter, probally because it's very resonating from about 800Hz on and it's dispertion is there also very narrow. They got a solid bass out of it because of the scoop horn (a type of backloaded horn) they use for it, and the low damping of the tube amp adds a bit more to that.

So the amp is essential in this setup, with am modern amp this would sound schrill as the modern amp has a high damping factor and sounds neutral. It's using the deficit of that type of amp as an advantage to boost the bass. It has a sound that is hard to replicate with dsp and clean amps/speakers, that is what Amir is referring to. This is not a speaker with big dynamics (altough also not limited in it), it's a setup with a very coloured sound that works probally quiet well (if it's well executed) for those who love that.

The same amp will sound bass heavy on modern style speakers, and there a modern clean amp is objectivly a better solution, but not here.

 

[DanielT]

Amirm once wrote

"For me, I listened to low wattage tube amplifier driving horns at CES in a massive room which I cannot replicate with my Salon 2 speakers and massive amplification. This was the system and demo:"

now maybe you are wondering if Amirm meant he can not replicate that systems baddness..... or its goodness

.

Of course, listening to it doesn't say much in itself about the sound.
I compared that Youtube video with, presumably another, recording of Toccata and fugue in D minor, BWV 565 directly via Spotify with my headphones.


Big difference in clarity and so on. No new observation from my side. Everyone already knows that this is the case with such comparisons (depends a lot on how the Youtube recording is made, which microphone is used and so on). I then played that Bach piece with my speakers and my subwoofer, which was actually my idea to do from the beginning.

The worst is of course when this is done:
Actually, it's not done dishonestly, check spoiler.

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - SMAPPP - en planmagnetisk linjespelare

Spoiler

In Solhaga's defense, I should mention that he was clear in saying that: There is an added sound when making the Youtube video.
SMAPPP may be majestic, but can't play either without diaphragm or amplifier connection.
The music is only there because his speakers look a bit like the monolith in the movie; 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Edit:
OT. My budget HiFi that I think could give that solution in the video a match. Fostex 600 power amp, Topping E30 DAC, Spotify, Tannoy m2 speakers and Yamaha YST-SW300 subwoofer (f3 22 Hz)
with built-in HP-LP filter set to 50 Hz. Tannoy m2, surprisingly good budget speaker. Drops off up in the higher frequencies. I don't experience much off that falling off in the higher frequencies because of my hearing at my age. I still boost the highest frequencies a few dB with EQ to be on the "safe side".

Tannoy Mercury m2 Speaker System Review price specs - Hi-Fi Classic

www.hifi-classic.net

 

[MAB]

The same amp will sound bass heavy on modern style speakers, and there a modern clean amp is objectivly a better solution, but not here.

Or use EQ and get an even better result?

Poor frequency response that happens to align with a room or driver or speaker is not musical. More like a Rube Goldberg Apparatus.

 

[Godataloss]

He posted that in a thread about the dynamics of high efficiency speakers. The post was about speakers. And the fact that high efficiency speakers have great dynamics even driven by a low power tube amp. Here is the actual link.

Do high-efficiency speakers really have better 'dynamics'?

A very experienced audiophile on another forum recently asserted that high-efficiency speakers were inherently more dynamic than other types. By high-efficiency I believe he meant >92 dB sensitivity; by "dynamic" I believe he meant more brilliant response to transient signals. Do hi-eff...

www.audiosciencereview.com

He goes on to mention several JBL with similar dynamics, no tubes. It’s nothing to do with musical tube amps, it’s about high efficiency speakers.

It was this comment that validated my moving my horn speakers into my home theater where their virtues shine even hooked to a Denon Avr. I no longer care about measuring them and fixing their faults with peq. I just let them go from absolute silence to house-shaking crescendos- Tar was one of the first things I watched and it was stunning. They were fine on tube amps, but the 'magic' is not that tube amps make good speakers sound better, they make bad speakers sound more pleasing- horns, open baffles, pipes, your grandpa' cobbled together drivers from the 50's- may sound shockingly more natural with a tube amp.

 

[MAB]

It was this comment that validated my moving my horn speakers into my home theater where their virtues shine even hooked to a Denon Avr. I no longer care about measuring them and fixing their faults with peq. I just let them go from absolute silence to house-shaking crescendos- Tar was one of the first things I watched and it was stunning. They were fine on tube amps, but the 'magic' is not that tube amps make good speakers sound better, they make bad speakers sound more pleasing- horns, open baffles, pipes, your grandpa' cobbled together drivers from the 50's- may sound shockingly more natural with a tube amp.

Or with EQ much more effectively.
Of course no tube amp or even DSP EQ can fix those old piles of drivers grandpa cobbled together! But DSP going to have a much more effective result, for way less money in most cases, with much more predictable and outcome.

 

[ahofer]

Or with EQ much more effectively.
Of course no tube amp or even DSP EQ can fix those old piles of drivers grandpa cobbled together! But DSP going to have a much more effective result, for way less money in most cases, with much more predictable and outcome.

I have a theory that it isn’t just EQ. I think additional background noise and thicker harmonic distortion also help. We can do these things as well, but most audiophiles would rather buy porn in public than purchase tube emulation software. I remember seeing Dartzeel (or whatever) had a “goodness” dial or something, and my first thought was that someone had actually done it. But it’s just volume.

Oops - “pleasure control’

 

[MAB]

I have a theory that it isn’t just EQ. I think additional background noise and thicker harmonic distortion also help. We can do these things as well, but most audiophiles would rather buy porn in public than purchase tube emulation software. I remember seeing Dartzeel (or whatever) had a “goodness” dial or something, and my first thought was that someone had actually done it. But it’s just volume.

Oops - “pleasure control’
View attachment 409971

It may be.
Like you say, all of this can be implemented in a flexible, repeatable, and gnostic way.

 

[ahofer]

It may be.
Like you say, all of this can be implemented in a flexible, repeatable, and gnostic way.

If you use a computer as a source, I think it can already be done. What we need is an appliance that allows you to dial in configurable harmonic saturation (with accompanying level-sensitivity), and tape hiss, on top of some pre-set EQ curves (ie shift to more aggressive sloping house curves on top of whatever EQ you already have). Add in dynamic loudness, and I might well buy it.

Controls:
-overtone profile (parametric)
-saturation sensitivity to input level (dial) and on/off defeat
-tape noise (dial) starting at zero/defeat
-dynamic loudness boost levels (two dials) and base level (dial) and on/off defeat

you could do digital or analog domain, although it would be noisy in analog, I think.

 

[GXAlan]

It's using the deficit of that type of amp as an advantage to boost the bass. It has a sound that is hard to replicate with dsp and clean amps/speakers, that is what Amir is referring to.

What about the Accuphase P20 with its user selectable damping factor?

I no longer care about measuring them and fixing their faults with peq. I just let them go from absolute silence to house-shaking crescendos

But DSP going to have a much more effective result, for way less money in most cases, with much more predictable and outcome.

We know that people prefer louder signals so you can easily trick someone into preferring identical setups if one is slightly louder. It is why volume matching is so important in tests. We also know that FR irregularities are masked in stereo.

What we don’t have quantifiably is how the stuff balances out. If I lose 1 “point” of FR accuracy but gain 2 points of bass extension and 2 points of loudness, I will prefer it.

High efficiency speakers tend to compress less. Is there a scenario where the combination of higher SPL from fractionally less compression overcomes the preference of neutrality? All this talk about distortion has to be balanced with the idea that we perceive distortion as loudness…

 

[MAB]

What about the Accuphase P20 with its user selectable damping factor?




We know that people prefer louder signals so you can easily trick someone into preferring identical setups if one is slightly louder. It is why volume matching is so important in tests. We also know that FR irregularities are masked in stereo.

What we don’t have quantifiably is how the stuff balances out. If I lose 1 “point” of FR accuracy but gain 2 points of bass extension and 2 points of loudness, I will prefer it.

High efficiency speakers tend to compress less. Is there a scenario where the combination of higher SPL from fractionally less compression overcomes the preference of neutrality? All this talk about distortion has to be balanced with the idea that we perceive distortion as loudness…

None of my tube gear distorts enough to be remarkable.

And none of it is more musical than my non tube gear. I can detect the tube amps with my ears (or a mic!) if I hook them up to compression drivers (for instance). But that’s not musical. My high efficiency speakers sound musical irrespective of amp.

 

[Todd68]

I’ve owned three different tube amps, the first two sounded different than my solid state amps, but didn’t impress me that much or overall sound better. One was KT88 based the other was an 805 based SET.

I love building stuff and always wanted to build a tube amp. So recently I purchased and built an Elekit 8900 tube amp kit. This was an easy and enjoyable project. The amp is 300B SET with 12BHT driver tubes. My speakers are 93db and an easy load, so the 8 watts is enough for listening at normal satisfying levels.

It’s the first tube amp that I owned that beat out my SS amps in every aspect except the last bit of bass control and I imagine if I tried to play at ear damaging levels, the SS amps with tons of power would win simply because the tube amp would run out of headroom. The thing has horrible distortion measurements at full power, but even at louder than my normal listening levels I can’t hear any distortion or the 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion just doesn’t sound bad to me. I know I’ll get flamed for this, but to me, the level of definition and “resolution” is way ahead of my solid state. The amp is dead silent, I couldn’t believe this considering it’s a tube amp and lots of them are noisy compared to SS amps. So yes tube amps can sounds subjectively better. The picture is with 12au7 tubes but put in 12bh7 for more drive, and NFB is disabled. I can change the feedback with a jumper socket.

 

[Godataloss]

Or with EQ much more effectively.
Of course no tube amp or even DSP EQ can fix those old piles of drivers grandpa cobbled together! But DSP going to have a much more effective result, for way less money in most cases, with much more predictable and outcome.

This is not true at all if you've ever played with vintage drivers. EQ alone could never do it. You'd need some sort of effect processing at the very least. It just happens sometimes- hook an old paper alnico driver up to an old console-pull el84 amp and the gestalt is the thing the old guys rant about. It's real. Is it HIFI? Hell no- it's terrible for most listening situations and measures like ass, but I can understand why some people might prefer it. It's not about "predictable outcome"- these people are trying to create an instrument. I see no more hubris in that pursuit than spending more time listening with a microphone than your ears.

 

[MattHooper]

He posted that in a thread about the dynamics of high efficiency speakers. The post was about speakers. And the fact that high efficiency speakers have great dynamics even driven by a low power tube amp. Here is the actual link.

Do high-efficiency speakers really have better 'dynamics'?

A very experienced audiophile on another forum recently asserted that high-efficiency speakers were inherently more dynamic than other types. By high-efficiency I believe he meant >92 dB sensitivity; by "dynamic" I believe he meant more brilliant response to transient signals. Do hi-eff...

www.audiosciencereview.com

He goes on to mention several JBL with similar dynamics, no tubes. It’s nothing to do with musical tube amps, it’s about high efficiency speakers.

My measly layman hunch aligns with Amir in that conversation. I’m not super experience listening to horn speakers, but every time I’ve heard a version I had the impression of more dynamic life, even to subtle expressions, such as guitar fingerpicking. If I interpreted him correctly, Amir notices more dynamic life, and Horn speakers to and wishes we had more information to vet this idea.

As to tubes and dynamics, when I was comparing my Conrad Johnson tube amplifiers to a Bryston 4B3 ss amp, on highly dynamic, dense orchestral passages the solid-state amp sounded a bit cleaner and in control, but the tube amp actually sounded a little bit more dense, punchy and dynamic to me, which seem to me due to some sort of distortion effect: the same character that made the sound slightly more congested seem to make it feel more powerful, sort of like a compression effect.

Depending on what characteristic one seizes upon and listening, I could imagine seeing either as more powerful sounding.

 

[Todd68]

I like mine.
Yes, I'd concur that > 100 dB sensitivity is a must for serious listening -- not that enjoyable music cannot be reproduced by (yes, even) fleapower SET on less-sensitive loudspeakers.
I've been listening quite a bit lately to some of the latter, as I've noted elsewhere on this forum.
Fun is fun.

How loud do people need to listen for “serious listening” ? My speakers are 93db and easy to drive load and my 300B amp sounds dynamic and transparent at sane levels, I never listen louder than 85db peaks mostly in the mid 70db range. Also the low bass is handled with subs. As I said, it sounds better to me than a higher powered push pull and 805 SET amp I owned at my normal listening levels.