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Are tubes more musical?

I wonder if distortion and dynamic are interchangeable in this sense?
IME with SETs, which are almost invariably high amplitude and order of distortion, the sound is just blurry and confused. I could plausibly see that microphonic tubes could add some fake dynamics, but what I’ve heard is the opposite, fake compression.
 
IME with SETs, which are almost invariably high amplitude and order of distortion, the sound is just blurry and confused. I could plausibly see that microphonic tubes could add some fake dynamics, but what I’ve heard is the opposite, fake compression.
I keep telling people, if you want to hear what SETs do, your speakers have to be so efficient that the amp never makes more than about 20% of full power at clipping. This means for a 7 Watt (300b) amp that in most rooms the speakers need to be +103dB, preferably 8 to 16 Ohms (IOW, horns). Otherwise yes, they get quite confused. I already said they were the worst kind of amp around. But I understand the allure: the single power tube glowing, the circuit being really simple and so on. If I didn't have the parts around I wouldn't bother...
 
I keep telling people, if you want to hear what SETs do, your speakers have to be so efficient that the amp never makes more than about 20% of full power at clipping. This means for a 7 Watt (300b) amp that in most rooms the speakers need to be +103dB, preferably 8 to 16 Ohms (IOW, horns). Otherwise yes, they get quite confused. I already said they were the worst kind of amp around. But I understand the allure: the single power tube glowing, the circuit being really simple and so on. If I didn't have the parts around I wouldn't bother...
So beyond an impossible to reach ideal application, where and I guess can a SET amplifier be deployed and actually provide good sound reproduction?
 
So beyond an impossible to reach ideal application, where and I guess can a SET amplifier be deployed and actually provide good sound reproduction?
What is meant by 'good'? I'm of the opinion that a properly designed PP amp will sound better (and measure better) in every way over an SET. And a properly designed class D can do even better...
 
I'd say Tubes are slightly more theatrical than musical, though they are both:

 
So beyond an impossible to reach ideal application, where and I guess can a SET amplifier be deployed and actually provide good sound reproduction?
When you don't have any other possible choice. Like you are on a shipwreck. A solar panel and speaker and SET are all that you have along with some music source on your deserted island. If a freighter sinks and an AVR washes ashore in a box, you have an instant upgrade.
 
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I keep telling people, if you want to hear what SETs do, your speakers have to be so efficient that the amp never makes more than about 20% of full power at clipping. This means for a 7 Watt (300b) amp that in most rooms the speakers need to be +103dB, preferably 8 to 16 Ohms (IOW, horns). Otherwise yes, they get quite confused. I already said they were the worst kind of amp around. But I understand the allure: the single power tube glowing, the circuit being really simple and so on. If I didn't have the parts around I wouldn't bother...
I like mine. :)
Yes, I'd concur that > 100 dB sensitivity is a must for serious listening -- not that enjoyable music cannot be reproduced by (yes, even) fleapower SET on less-sensitive loudspeakers.
I've been listening quite a bit lately to some of the latter, as I've noted elsewhere on this forum.
Fun is fun.
 
I like mine. :)
Yes, I'd concur that > 100 dB sensitivity is a must for serious listening -- not that enjoyable music cannot be reproduced by (yes, even) fleapower SET on less-sensitive loudspeakers.
I've been listening quite a bit lately to some of the latter, as I've noted elsewhere on this forum.
Fun is fun.
With the low efficiency and high power requirements of gear these days and after all these years of experience with that type of gear it is easy to forget that one of the systems that was a major factor in getting myself into hi-fi gear was corner horns with a 30W/ch Hitachi Dyna Harmony amp and the amp was barely turned up and it was loud. Great sound I thought and then I found out that bigger power was required and speakers where not capable of what I experienced unless one had the big money for that efficient gear at the time.
 
I like mine. :)
Yes, I'd concur that > 100 dB sensitivity is a must for serious listening -- not that enjoyable music cannot be reproduced by (yes, even) fleapower SET on less-sensitive loudspeakers.
I've been listening quite a bit lately to some of the latter, as I've noted elsewhere on this forum.
Fun is fun.

It is worse than politics… ;)

We have speakers that are going down to 2ohms and below, and kW level Class-D amps to service their power needs.
And simultaneously SETs and people running super sensitive drivers and horns.

The ol 8 ohm speakers are getting lonely in the middle. ;)
 
I keep telling people, if you want to hear what SETs do, your speakers have to be so efficient that the amp never makes more than about 20% of full power at clipping.

I wonder about this.

What can SETs really do when optimized?

Are you talking in terms of objective performance?

A properly optimized SET amplifier is simply one that is more neutral and transparent, we already have that in solid state amplifiers so I’m not sure what one would gain.

Isn’t the allure of a SET for most people that they can color, the sound in ways that people believe to be particularly pleasing? And if that’s the case, why bother trying to optimize a SET amplifier any other way?
 
What is it that I’m hearing in my tube preamp and tubed headphone amp that is so romantic, warm, soft around the edges, and smooth, even syrupy sometimes? I’m not talking about hybrid amps or tube buffers. (My headphone amp is an OTL design, my preamp has no transistors in the audio circuit.) Do tubes enhance dynamics? They seem to create a feeling of space and holographic imaging. These qualities make it great for home audio applications. Of course they add distortion but it’s pleasing to the ear. The warm sound of tubes seems perfect for laid back and acoustic music styles like jazz. In my experience, most typical solid state gear can’t perform as well for getting the presentation and emotional impact of music right. Are tubes more musical?
Imo less high frequency and less dynamics makes easier listening. You could probably replicate with a neutral monitor like the Genelec 8030, 8040 and some eq where you create a stronger slope down, with more bass and less treble.

Another thing you could try is dynamic eq like in the rme adi dac and some denon avrs iirc.

Bose Quietcomfort I personally like very much for easy listening. You could try them too and see if you like them.
 
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What can SETs really do when optimized?
At best, be a far less efficient version of a properly designed amp.

The last SET amp I used was supposedly optimized (which it should be at its asking price). And indeed, at low volumes, it didn't sound much different than an engineered amp. But turn it up even a bit and everything started falling apart.
 
Funny that super simple low power transistor amps don't get the same love. Same single ended pure class A circuit with the same simplicity. I think the big difference is no big glowing glass envelope poking thru the top. There are the Nelson Pass First Watt amps. They make a lot more sense for horns that are needed for such flea powered devices as they are much quieter than vacuum tube designs usually are.
 
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Funny that super simple low power transistor amps don't get the same love. Same single ended pure class A circuit with the same simplicity. I think the big difference is no big glowing glass envelope poking thru the top. There are the Nelson Pass First Watt amps. They make a lot more sense for horns that are needed for such flea powered devices as they are much quieter than vacuum designs usually are.
ahem.
... and Pass's Amp Camp Amp.
;)
Not meant to be the sine qua non in amplifier performance (indeed, it measures kinda sorta like a SET amp, except that it has some bass extension ;)), but it was meant to show tyros how simple an amplifier could be -- and still amplify music in a satisfying* way. :)
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"My" ACA -- which isn't actually,technically mine... but that's another story for another time. :facepalm:



(I forgot to pay the color photon bill when I took these piccies :cool:)

____________________
* Don't ask me to quantify satisfying. ;)
 
Funny that super simple low power transistor amps don't get the same love. Same single ended pure class A circuit with the same simplicity. I think the big difference is no big glowing glass envelope poking thru the top. There are the Nelson Pass First Watt amps. They make a lot more sense for horns that are needed for such flea powered devices as they are much quieter than vacuum tube designs usually are.

I’ve heard of some people wanting lower wattage amp designs if they are using really efficient speakers, on the grounds you are less likely to get hiss or some raised background noise level from the amp.

My friend had the Klipsch La Scalas, drove them with a Bryston 4B3, didn’t have any problems with noise.
 
I’ve heard of some people wanting lower wattage amp designs if they are using really efficient speakers, on the grounds you are less likely to get hiss or some raised background noise level from the amp.
That's a... novel idea.
 
That's a... novel idea.

I could be misremembering the justification. But I seem to remember there’s appeal to some types of amplification not only on the grounds of purported sound quality, but in dealing with the high efficiency problem of exacerbating any background noise.

Is there absolutely nothing to the idea that high-efficiency speakers may reveal a noise floor in an amplifier that might be hidden with less efficient speakers?
 
Is there absolutely nothing to the idea that high-efficiency speakers may reveal a noise floor in an amplifier that might be hidden with less efficient speakers?
No, that's fine. It's the correlation with the amp's power that's questionable.
 
Sure: https://we.tl/t-PL0DqFJyLd
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The same DISTORT transfer function as before (GFA-565 bridged simulation from here) was applied to one of the tracks, A or B. You decide which one is which, and which one sounds brighter than the other in an ABX test.

Files included (shared under fair use doctrine):

01 Some Animals-A.wav
01 Some Animals-B.wav
04 Sandino-A.wav
04 Sandino-B.wav
@atmasphere have you downloaded these yet?
 
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