Are tubes more musical?

[Purité Audio]

The brand of valve amp ( my one and only dalliance with valves) was so unreliable/fire hazard that if you left the room to make a cup of tea you were genuinely concerned.
Looking back it was quite humorous, preamps where you couldn’t turn the volume down, all inputs playing the same source complaining being sent another unit with exactly the same fault!
Two power amps up in smoke, the ‘designer’ changing the design on a whim often cutting extra holes and then. patching the top plate creating a Frankenstein creation,
Never used valves as a lad made that one mistake never again.
Keith

 

[DanielT]

Personal subjective experiences and HiFi.

The only amp I regret selling was a small DIY tube amp. I didn't build it but bought it for around $30 in the 1990's. Had it plugged in from time to time over the years. Changed the power tube, 6AQ5, in it (guess it had around 10 watts of power). Drilled holes for ventilation. Plugged in a high to low level converter in the speaker outputs to be able to add a subwoofer and so on. I had a lot of fun with it.
If you had measured it, it would probably have measured like crap, but it had a nice sound. If it was imaginary (a powerful force) and or a combination of audible tube amp coloration/distortion that created that sound experience, I don't know.

It was a bit rough. Built from an old tin box. Output transformers placed on each other:


Damn I miss that tin box tube diy amplifier. A fun little thing.

As a secondary system, perhaps in the bedroom it would have been nice with tube glow in this times of autumn darkness.

 

[Wesseling Audio Lab]

They seem to create a feeling of space and holographic imaging.

That was my experience with Modulas 3A. When a few others tried it in their systems the first comment was related to holographic imaging. This strong characteristic is applied to every recording and became unappealing over time.

 

[Cbdb2]

I recall a tube amp designer's opinion that the peculiarities of the old transformer he uses is responsible for a significant part of the better impression his limited production imparts to listeners. I know of another amp builder who buys up a specific make of old transformers for one of his amp designs. Neither goes for tube rolling, just specific tube choices for their respective design parameters.

Rupert Neve also contributes the sound of his original mix desks to all the transformers. They were never intended or used for home audio.

 

[sergeauckland]

Personal subjective experiences and HiFi.

The only amp I regret selling was a small DIY tube amp. I didn't build it but bought it for around $30 in the 1990's. Had it plugged in from time to time over the years. Changed the power tube, 6AQ5, in it (guess it had around 10 watts of power). Drilled holes for ventilation. Plugged in a high to low level converter in the speaker outputs to be able to add a subwoofer and so on. I had a lot of fun with it.
If you had measured it, it would probably have measured like crap, but it had a nice sound. If it was imaginary (a powerful force) and or a combination of audible tube amp coloration/distortion that created that sound experience, I don't know.

It was a bit rough. Built from an old tin box. Output transformers placed on each other:
View attachment 397505View attachment 397506View attachment 397507View attachment 397511View attachment 397512

Damn I miss that tin box tube diy amplifier. A fun little thing.

As a secondary system, perhaps in the bedroom it would have been nice with tube glow in this times of autumn darkness.

Never seen transformers stacked like that! I would expect both that the transformers would get a bit hot, (top one from the bottom one's heat and the bottom one from reduced vertilation) and odd magnetic interactions. Otherwise, yes, a fun thing to use.

S

 

[OldHvyMec]

Because I like to color the music I listen to, I have always used valves with tone control. If I wanted transparent I might use a SS passive preamp.

The problem is I've never heard a live recording that didn't need something to keep from running me out of the room. My ears aren't perfect
and my taste, are my own.

I like too many types of music to be limited by a person's perception of what THEY think I should like vs what I know I do. You're STUCK with what
SS offers. Power amps are simple, SS for sub/bass and valves for mids and highs.

I'm not a big fan of cone drivers either, but they have their place sub/bass.

BTW, I like to ADD red pepper and anchovies on my pizza. The cook always adds too much or too little. SS is like eating bread with no sauce.

Regards

 

[DanielT]

Never seen transformers stacked like that! I would expect both that the transformers would get a bit hot, (top one from the bottom one's heat and the bottom one from reduced vertilation) and odd magnetic interactions. Otherwise, yes, a fun thing to use.

S

Heh heh, probably a lousy solution but it worked. Speaking of heat. You know how hot tubes get. Then imagine how hot it got inside that tin box before I drilled the holes.

I even went to a local small workshop and the old man who had it cut some tubes which I then (one or two of them) intended to put on the tube amplifier and thus create a chimney draft ventilation. Or if is it called stack effect in english?


The point. It was fun tinkering with that little tube amp. That tinkering in itself probably resulted in me unconsciously creating an illusion, an imagination of a good or pleasant sound. Now it doesn't really matter to me. In the case of that tube amp, I had different intentions than my main system. But the most fascinating thing is that I actually played most of the time with the little tube amp, even though on all measurable points, not to mention its mediocre power, it would take a serious beating from my solid state amp I had at the time.

So why tinker with tubes? There are reasons beyond what can be read in objective measurable test reports. Having said that, those considering tube amps should know what they are OBJECTIVELY getting in the way of lousy performance for a lot of $ when buying a few tube watts. At least if you buy commercial tube amplifiers. Single end with 300B power tube amps with 10 watts for over $10,000 for example. If it's not a problem, sure run on tubes.

Price-wise and fun to fiddle with then DIY tube amps are another matter.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

There seems to be general sense that tubes colour the sound or add ambience. They simply don't do those things if the circuit is designed properly.

In power amplifiers with output transformers and relatively high output impedance that may vary with frequency, they can colour the sound (to be exact, they let the speaker's impedance have to much impact). But that's really a consequence of high voltage devices being mated to low impedance devices that prefer lower voltages, higher currents and lower impedances. Tube power amplifiers are difficult and expensive to design well

 

[ErVikingo]

Interesting to note, many studios use tube"d" mics and other tube gear in their recording gear.

I have both working at the same time [SS on bass and Tubes on Mid/highs] and also on my secondary systems. I find tubes less fatiguing thus I enjoy the music more. YMMV.

 

[Multicore]

That, my friend, is the sound of gullibility. With a little hint of distortion.

It is an esoteric box of magic.

Gullibility may be involved (very likely in this case) but some are objectively expert in the esoteric and still attracted to it.

Like a book of magic found in a dusty book vendor's stall in a Cairo market, it says on the cover it contains secret powerful knowledge. So delicious and tempting! But, rather obviously, it's a published book so how can it contain any secrets?

Magic depends on this paradox. If it doesn't announce itself, it doesn't get noticed at all. But if it fully reveals itself, it has no special power. It's the psychological power of the partly understood in which that part has the hint of magic. I mean, what does an amp being "more musical" even mean? If you seriously try to answer that question, the magic quickly evaporates. Alternatively you can adopt the belief that it means something important as a premise and spend the rest of your life in the study and practice of this esoteric art.

I think audiophillia functions quite well as an example of esotericism.

 

[sergeauckland]

Interesting to note, many studios use tube"d" mics and other tube gear in their recording gear.

I have both working at the same time [SS on bass and Tubes on Mid/highs] and also on my secondary systems. I find tubes less fatiguing thus I enjoy the music more. YMMV.

Using tube microphones or other non-transparent gear at the recording is perfectly legitimate to create the sound. Reproducing the sound is altogether another issue, and in my view, much less legitimate if the object is accuracy in reproduction. By all means colour the playback to your taste, but then don't claim it's better or that horrible word, musical.

S.

 

[BDWoody]

There seems to be general sense that tubes colour the sound or add ambience. They simply don't do those things if the circuit is designed properly.

But but but... They glow! They must be warmer.

I think many would be surprised at their inability to differentiate between tube vs SS, assuming neither was designed to be an intentional fuzzbox.

I like too many types of music to be limited by a person's perception of what THEY think I should like vs what I know I do. You're STUCK with what
SS offers.

This seems a little backwards to me. With a tube amp, aren't you locked in to the noise/distortion profile that is baked in, and will be there for every single song you play through it, rather than the clean signal that you are free to season to YOUR taste?

 

[Multicore]

By all means colour the playback to your taste, but then don't claim it's better or that horrible word, musical.

I don't think it's a horrible word but I resent how the consumer audio equipment marketers use it like this. As a musician and a music lover, I demand they give it back.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Assuming your OTL amp has 90 ohm output impedance (a common value for a lot of OTL headphone amps on the market), that explains the extra warmth, slam that you experience with the DT990. No magic tubes involved, just impedance matching to FR relationship

I bet this is bang on the money. DT990s are well-known to have a somewhat bright-leaning bathtub frequency response, so filling out the low end may not be unwelcome.

It goes without saying that this is a very roundabout way of applying some EQ.

 

[SIY]

Tube amps colours the sound in a way many like, by adding harmonic distortion.

Often claimed, never actually demonstrated. See, for example, our futile attempt in another thread to get the principal of Atmasphere to do a properly controlled test.

 

[Mikig]

Personally, I grew up with a tube amplifier. It was the first “serious” device I had, and it was the component that changed the way I listened the most in my life.
In fact, it was the one that made me passionate about listening to music, and collecting hi-fi equipment.
I confess that I would like to return to tubes, but the latest experiments have left me a bit undecided. Just inserting a tube preamplifier into the chain resulted in background noise audible from the speakers.
Unfortunately, in recent years I have built a system that does not have this feature and therefore the habit of “silence” has become predominant.
Very pleasant in subjective listening, that device, in fact if it had not presented that noise that was evident to me I would have certainly kept that preamplifier.
In a small room, that of the second system, and with listening mostly at low volume, the emphasis on the mids was a panacea. but that's all,
I will definitely try other tube devices, maybe more modern ones, but one thing is certain: I absolutely do not feel like discarding a priori one technology rather than another.
In the end, therefore, to the measurements and the performance itself, objectively, personal taste in listening to the complete system is the master, regardless of any technical consideration.
So if you like tubes, use them, without being too influenced by discussions about what would be better or worse to have...

 

[GXAlan]

I am glad I replied early. There are four schools of thought.

1) tubes are transparent, since electrons have no idea how they got there. Any difference you hear is all sighted bias except for very intentionally bad designs (SS or tube). @SIY

2) Tubes are able to mask high frequency harmonic distortion, so even with a flat FR, it will be able to mask differences. It is about avoiding the rising distortion at rising frequency. You can also design Class D amps to behave this way. @atmasphere

3) Tubes are a form a EQ and what you are hearing is just the effect of load dependency. (Several in this thread)

4) Tubes can be a complex set of non-linearities that alter the frequency response of music through a combination of distortion, compressors, expanders, crosstalk, microphonics, etc. It is NOT a simple EQ otherwise you could use a graphic EQ or parametric EQ. Instead you need to use more sophisticated software like VST plugins, compressors, expanders, etc. Unless you subscribe to the idea that it is all sighted bias, the very nature of tube simulations through VSTs strongly indicates that there is a difference.

While it is perfectly valid to say that you should have a transparent solid state system and then added the “musicality” to taste using software VST tools since you can turn on and off the capabilities, that would be the same as buying 16 Fosi V3 amplifiers with no power management for your home theater. You could manually walk to each amp and turn it on. In contrast, maybe getting the Trinnov Amplitude 16 makes sense for the convenience.

If you subscribe to the idea that tubes do have a sound that is more than just a measured but inaudible effect, are thoughtful enough to understand that everyone doesn’t have the same preferences, THEN it is equally valid to say:

Instead of dealing with complex VST, compressors/exciters, it might just be a lot easier to buy a box that does it for you: a tube pre amp or amp.

The tube preamp might impart less deviation from transparency than a tube preamp, again ignoring SIY and looking at many commercially available products. Individuals preferring little bit of tubiness would go for a tube preamp and those preferring more might for a tube amplifier, and those wanting the most, would double up.
It doesn’t matter that it’s a fixed effect, because it in fact is a dynamic effect. I have shown this with my analysis of this 300B SET. You cannot reproduce this using a GEQ or PEQ. It’s a more complex.

Record breaker: Raphaelite CS30-MKII tube amplifier review and measurements

Raphaelite CS30-MKII 300B integrated tube amplifier review: A New Performance Record This is a review and detailed measurements of Raphaelite CS30-MKK 300B single ended tube amplifier. It is available on eBay for $1449 + $310 shipping to California + tax. There are some better deals from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

As evidenced by many science oriented tube and vinyl listeners here, it may very well turn out that the coloration is neutral to preferred more often than not for some listeners.

As evidenced by many closets, attics, garages, and offices of members here — a lot of people have more than one listening setup.

You can still demand good measurements from tube gear, namely
1) excellent control of your 50/60Hz mains noise. No one believes that this is part of the tube magic.

2) low noise*
No one wants noise during idle passages of music. The value of noise in masking distortion is a different story.

3) Minimal crosstalk*
Maybe it’s helpful for headphones, but even tube aficionados like dual mono designs, so a stereo product should minimize cross talk as much as possible.

4) Reliability
Stories of exploding designs are true. You are dealing with much higher voltages in a tube amplifier. Don’t feel bad paying a lot for a McIntosh or Audio Research or Luxman product even though it may use the same tubes that everyone else is using. You rarely hear about McIntosh tube amps exploding or causing damage to downstream devices…

I subscribe to #4. Right now, I have in fact, sold all my tube gear and all my passive speakers. I have held on to some of my vintage tubes in good condition and if I win the lottery, no doubt that I will be buying some tube electronics.

 

[Waxx]

Often claimed, never actually demonstrated. See, for example, our futile attempt in another thread to get the principal of Atmasphere to do a properly controlled test.

the people at diyaudio.com did do it, but i'm at work and can't spend to much time to try to find it back.

And the reverse is also never proven, at least not that i saw. So can you link that.

But it's a truth that tube sound is liked by many, also who knows neutral (like me, i have both). But most of the ASR crowd don't like that some people have a different subjective taste than the objective best. That's why as soon as someone says the word tube of vinyl on this side a lot of attacks are launched...

To be clear, i don't claim technical superiority of tubes, nor from vinyl. They are from pure technical point of view obsolete old tech, inferior to modern tech. The reason that people who know choose them is personal preference and one of the factors is the harmonic distortion.

 

[Chr1]

I am glad I replied early. There are four schools of thought.

1) tubes are transparent, since electrons have no idea how they got there. Any difference you hear is all sighted bias except for very intentionally bad designs (SS or tube). @SIY

2) Tubes are able to mask high frequency harmonic distortion, so even with a flat FR, it will be able to mask differences. It is about avoiding the rising distortion at rising frequency. You can also design Class D amps to behave this way. @atmasphere

3) Tubes are a form a EQ and what you are hearing is just the effect of load dependency. (Several in this thread)

4) Tubes can be a complex set of non-linearities that alter the frequency response of music through a combination of distortion, compressors, expanders, crosstalk, microphonics, etc. It is NOT a simple EQ otherwise you could use a graphic EQ or parametric EQ. Instead you need to use more sophisticated software like VST plugins, compressors, expanders, etc. Unless you subscribe to the idea that it is all sighted bias, the very nature of tube simulations through VSTs strongly indicates that there is a difference.

While it is perfectly valid to say that you should have a transparent solid state system and then added the “musicality” to taste using software VST tools since you can turn on and off the capabilities, that would be the same as buying 16 Fosi V3 amplifiers with no power management for your home theater. You could manually walk to each amp and turn it on. In contrast, maybe getting the Trinnov Amplitude 16 makes sense for the convenience.

If you subscribe to the idea that tubes do have a sound that is more than just a measured but inaudible effect, are thoughtful enough to understand that everyone doesn’t have the same preferences, THEN it is equally valid to say:

Instead of dealing with complex VST, compressors/exciters, it might just be a lot easier to buy a box that does it for you: a tube pre amp or amp.

The tube preamp might impart less deviation from transparency than a tube preamp, again ignoring SIY and looking at many commercially available products. Individuals preferring little bit of tubiness would go for a tube preamp and those preferring more might for a tube amplifier, and those wanting the most, would double up.
It doesn’t matter that it’s a fixed effect, because it in fact is a dynamic effect. I have shown this with my analysis of this 300B SET. You cannot reproduce this using a GEQ or PEQ. It’s a more complex.

Record breaker: Raphaelite CS30-MKII tube amplifier review and measurements

Raphaelite CS30-MKII 300B integrated tube amplifier review: A New Performance Record This is a review and detailed measurements of Raphaelite CS30-MKK 300B single ended tube amplifier. It is available on eBay for $1449 + $310 shipping to California + tax. There are some better deals from...

www.audiosciencereview.com

As evidenced by many science oriented tube and vinyl listeners here, it may very well turn out that the coloration is neutral to preferred more often than not for some listeners.

As evidenced by many closets, attics, garages, and offices of members here — a lot of people have more than one listening setup.

You can still demand good measurements from tube gear, namely
1) excellent control of your 50/60Hz mains noise. No one believes that this is part of the tube magic.

2) low noise*
No one wants noise during idle passages of music. The value of noise in masking distortion is a different story.

3) Minimal crosstalk*
Maybe it’s helpful for headphones, but even tube aficionados like dual mono designs, so a stereo product should minimize cross talk as much as possible.

4) Reliability
Stories of exploding designs are true. You are dealing with much higher voltages in a tube amplifier. Don’t feel bad paying a lot for a McIntosh or Audio Research or Luxman product even though it may use the same tubes that everyone else is using. You rarely hear about McIntosh tube amps exploding or causing damage to downstream devices…

I subscribe to #4. Right now, I have in fact, sold all my tube gear and all my passive speakers. I have held on to some of my vintage tubes in good condition and if I win the lottery, no doubt that I will be buying some tube electronics.

This!

(+1 for number 4...)

 

[Multicore]

It seems to me that you are hearing distortion and liking it.

You know the red SSL 4K button? It adds 2.25% THD and a gentle 2 dB HF shelf centered around 2.5 kHz. Julian Krause ably measures, describes and demonstrates it here. The demo uses a solo acoustic guitar and I like the effect. But, of course, this is 1) designed for use in recording on single tracks, 2) is an artistic choice that you might find nice for one thing and not for another.

I'm no purist so in playback systems I'm all in favor of making frequency response adjustments to personal taste. In principle I'm in favor of adding non-linear effects too but in practice I am against it because, as the SSL 4K demo makes clear, the artistic choice depends on the signal. I'm just not going to add distortion effects tailored to each individual recording by selecting among a collection of amps each with their own distinct non-linearity. This, it seems to me, is the path you'll have to take if you want to improve listening pleasure by adding uncontrollable distortion built into amps. Recording engineers can practically play this game with their collection of mics but I'm not going to play it with hifi amps.

There are very many hardware and software products for adding controllable distortion. Why not play with those instead?

If anyone wants to go down that road I would suggest finding or organizing a metadata management system so you can save your preferred distortion settings for each recording/collection.