Are tubes more musical?

[Multicore]

I thought that the video was quite interesting. I did note, however, that while he does use solid state stomp boxes, there wasn’t a single solid state amp shown in the video.

Yes there was.

You really can get great sound from effects, linear amps, and FRFR boxes. There's nothing magical about guitar amps either. It's all just engineering.

 

[A Surfer]

There is one absolutely correct answer. If we do not attempt to define with precision what musical even means, and just allow for musical to exist then the answer is clear. For some people a tube amp that is not designed to be neutral will be more musical for some people, but not all.

I am going to go out on a limb here and speculate that while they do not have to have a sound, many tube amplifier designs intentionally have a sound because the designer knows that is what the consumer wants, a coloured sounding device.

 

[Multicore]

There is one absolutely correct answer.

Hmmm...

If we do not attempt to define with precision what musical even means, and just allow for musical to exist then the answer is clear.

Fascinating. I believe the opposite is true.

If we do not attempt to define with precision what musical even means, and just allow for musical to exist then the answer is NOT clear.

And this uncertainty serves the audiophile market very well. It provides the elbow room for all the magic to exist. So long we do not attempt to define with precision what musical even means, the possibility that "tubes are more musical" can remain safe from empiricism.

 

[A Surfer]

Hmmm...


Fascinating. I believe the opposite is true.

If we do not attempt to define with precision what musical even means, and just allow for musical to exist then the answer is NOT clear.

And this uncertainty serves the audiophile market very well. It provides the elbow room for all the magic to exist. So long we do not attempt to define with precision what musical even means, the possibility that "tubes are more musical" can remain safe from empiricism.

I don't think a subjective experience can ever be defined with precision. In fact, by definition it would be impossible wouldn't it?

 

[MAB]

Myth handed down over and over again.

If you wish, you can test this for yourself using Pkane's Distort software. You choose the type and level distortion of any musical file you give it.

It is rather strange how few people use Pkane's software to investigate this for themselves.

Agree. The people who argue seem to also steadfastly resist even the simplest tools to prove or disprove their argument.

@ajramirez
People routinely get harmonics from musical instruments confused with harmonic distortion in reproduction equipment. Reinforced by logical fallacies like the musicians know harmonics and sound. The misunderstanding is featured in this thread.

I just recorded a Clarinet spectra:

The instrument has harmonics around the fundamental note it plays. Which is not distortion. So it is indeed absurd to assert that because certain instruments have certain harmonic content, it's then good to add the same harmonics in reproduction, via tubes, in the form of distortion.

If I change Embouchure the harmonics change, ratio of second to third, and the higher order:

Should I then also change the tubiness of my system to match this new distribution of harmonics?
In reality, tubes can't do this. They barely distort for reproduction. And and tubes' distortion isn't really like any instrument's harmonics anyway. And, guitar amps (tube or otherwise) sound they way they do for reasons much different than tubes vs. transistors.

 

[Multicore]

I don't think a subjective experience can ever be defined with precision. In fact, by definition it would be impossible wouldn't it?

This seems to me concordant with my point about reserving elbow room to protect against empiricism.

 

[SIY]

@atmasphere Have you downloaded the files that @pkane prepared for you?

Obviously, anyone else is welcome to give those a try.

Since @atmasphere has apparently declined to put his claims to the test that @pkane spent much time putting together according to Ralph's demands, I'm curious if anyone else has downloaded the files and tried the comparison.

I'm still always amazed at how predictable these things are.

 

[BDWoody]

Well I didn't say a valve guitar amp was more 'musical', however if we believe that an accurate system is better then if valve guitar amps were used to make the music

I don't think anyone is saying that about the music creation process.

perhaps using valve amps to reproduce it are more accurate.

How could adding more noise/distortion during the recreation process make it more accurate?

I want the distortion created when the music was created. A valve amp just adds more, it doesn't more accurately create music made with valve amps.

 

[DanielT]

Speaking of tubes. My friend bought a Samsung Blu-Ray player that has tubes at a flea market. He got it for $6. He plugs it in when he gets home. If he's lucky, it works.

I KNOW what he will say about how it how it sounds. He is convinced that as soon as a few tubes are inserted somewhere in the HiFi/sound chain, the music becomes more "authentic", warm, natural and so on. You know the arguments.

I would probably also have bought that Blu-Ray player just to test it out for fun. Mainly, or actually only, to see how the tubes glow in the dark. Fun with tube glow for the price of a few chocolate bars. ....if it works, that is.

This model, Samsung HT-E6500W Blu-ray. I found some pictures online:

Edit:
He was lucky. It works as it should:

 

[notinuse]

Time to start tube swapping in that Blu-ray player.

 

[mhardy6647]

Time to start tube swapping in that Blu-ray player.

Kinda surprising that a laser-swapping community never developed, isn't it?
I am sure there are earnest discussions somewhere on the web comparing and contrasting correlations of PRaT or slam or somesuch "factors" with various formulations of lubricants for the disc tray sled.

There's obviously so much room for improvement -- and we all know the beancounters forced the manufacturers to use lubes they sourced from Walmart to save on cost of goods.

 

[DanielT]

Time to start tube swapping in that Blu-ray player.

It wouldn't surprise me if he did. It also wouldn't surprise me if those tubes have no practical function in that Blu-ray player. I suspect they are just there for decoration but I could be wrong.

When I saw that Blu-ray player, I thought of Luxman and their 1980s creations, these:

As far as I remembered, they were of course marketed with the best of both worlds, i.e. a pre amp that softened the sound via tubes and then amplified via solid state.

 

[Birdy]

I was startled when my first little Aiyima A07 -- I own four now, two of them driving the ambience/surround channels of my 7.1 system -- performed every bit as well as the reviewer-adored Adcom GFA-535 I swore by back in the previous century.

i agree, and if you consider costs, components, materials, price, heat, weight and performance then there is no competition between these, in my view, obsolete heavy amp's and the new generation class D (chip) amp's. :--)

 

[JP]

Since @atmasphere has apparently declined to put his claims to the test that @pkane spent much time putting together according to Ralph's demands, I'm curious if anyone else has downloaded the files and tried the comparison.

I'm still always amazed at how predictable these things are.

I found A and B equally painful in every way.

 

[MattHooper]

Speaking of tubes. My friend bought a Samsung Blu-Ray player that has tubes at a flea market. He got it for $6. He plugs it in when he gets home. If he's lucky, it works.

I KNOW what he will say about how it how it sounds. He is convinced that as soon as a few tubes are inserted somewhere in the HiFi/sound chain, the music becomes more "authentic", warm, natural and so on. You know the arguments.

I would probably also have bought that Blu-Ray player just to test it out for fun. Mainly, or actually only, to see how the tubes glow in the dark. Fun with tube glow for the price of a few chocolate bars. ....if it works, that is.

This model, Samsung HT-E6500W Blu-ray. I found some pictures online:
View attachment 401735View attachment 401736
Edit:
He was lucky. It works as it should:
View attachment 401745View attachment 401746

I have a peach tree audio integrated amplifier which sports a tube. It was bought due to the form factor and where I had to fit it. I’m sure they want the tube to imply something about the sound, but it sounds just like a regular solid state amp. The tube is just there for show I figure.

 

[Henry53]

I don't think anyone is saying that about the music creation process.



How could adding more noise/distortion during the recreation process make it more accurate?

I want the distortion created when the music was created. A valve amp just adds more, it doesn't more accurately create music made with valve amps.

But can you actually hear either 'distortion'?

 

[solderdude]

But can you actually hear either 'distortion'?

Depends on:
The harmonics profile
How high the amplitude of the distortion is.
Music used.

Alas it is impossible to hear what the effect was of the recorded 'effects'.
You can asses using blind level matched testing of a single recording gone through a 'near perfect' amp and the 'effect box amp'.

 

[Killingbeans]

There is one absolutely correct answer. If we do not attempt to define with precision what musical even means, and just allow for musical to exist then the answer is clear. For some people a tube amp that is not designed to be neutral will be more musical for some people, but not all.

IMO, the word "musical" is reserved for human beings. Neither guitar amps nor reproduction gear has the capacity for intelligence or creativity.

They can "at best" do an effect, and that's it. It's like saying a trumpet is more musical than a violin. Makes zero sense.

Enjoyable or soothing, sure. But the idea that some types of amplifiers possess musicality is absolutely bonkers.

 

[A Surfer]

....

Enjoyable or soothing, sure. But the idea that some types of amplifiers possess musicality is absolutely bonkers.

I take your point for sure, but because the notion of a musical experience is subjective it requires a source for the experience. So for an individual an amp, for example may better create a musical experience than another amp does. In that respect, I guess that amp would be more musical.

That of course is purely hypothetical and assumes the two amplifiers actually sounded audibly different.

 

[pkane]

IMO, the word "musical" is reserved for human beings. Neither guitar amps nor reproduction gear has the capacity for intelligence or creativity.

They can "at best" do an effect, and that's it. It's like saying a trumpet is more musical than a violin. Makes zero sense.

Enjoyable or soothing, sure. But the idea that some types of amplifiers possess musicality is absolutely bonkers.

"Musical" is a well-known measurement (that's still not implemented by AP for some reason). It's expressed as the number of toe-taps per second. The larger the toe-tap frequency, the more musical the source. A totally objective measure, and easy to measure at home