Are tubes more musical?

[Fahzz]

Maybe Mike Oldfield can "chime" in here?

 

[ajramirez]

Hi Antonio.
I do wonder.
Except that the sustain has nothing to do with tubes, soaring in a guitar solo or otherwise.
Also, the sound is in the EQ and the distortion, you even answered your own question. Go do a blind test of distortion, try to see if you can actually tell the difference between overdriven tube and a plugin of the same.

Putting aside the inaudibility of the things you mention... The part that really makes no sense is applying these fanciful ideas to reproduction. If I listen to Deep Purple, do you propose I roll out a Leslie speaker to properly reproduce John Lord's Hammond organ? I'm just wondering how far you intend to take this analogy. And hope you see it makes zero sense. These creation cum reproduction analogies don't work. And you misstate what makes an electric guitar sound as it does.

This is all so wrong and a mis characterization of the point I was trying to make.

Leaving aside digital effects and amp or cabinet emulators, sustain happens because the amp is overdriven. The fact that it is overdriven compresses the signal, which means that even as the string vibration is reduced (with the concomitant reduction in electrical output of the pickup) the volume stays the same. Proposing to compare tube distortion with a plug in of the same is completely besides the point. A digital plug in is nothing but a digital sampling or synthesis of distortion sound. It is not remotely the same as comparing an overdriven transistor circuit with an overdriven tube circuit. It is like comparing an actual acoustic piano with a digital piano, which is nothing but a digital reproduction of the real thing.

I, frankly, do not understand your whole Deep Purple/Leslie speaker analogy. What you are proposing is absurd and I said nothing of the sort. All I said was that tube amps sound different from solid state amps when overdriven, and used as an example guitar amps, in particular when overdriven. That is all I said and nothing more. My only mention of a Leslie speaker was in response to a separate post, where I stated that a Leslie speaker is as much a musical instrument (or a part of the same) as the Hammond organ that drives it. This, in support of my assertion that a guitar amplifier is not merely a reproducer of the guitar signal, but is a part of the musical instrument itself. As an electric guitarist plays the guitar and the amp, a Hammond organist plays the organ and the Leslie.

Anybody who has played electric guitar (particularly in rock music or fusion) knows this.

Cheers,

Antonio

 

[Blumlein 88]

This is all so wrong and a mis characterization of the point I was trying to make.

Leaving aside digital effects and amp or cabinet emulators, sustain happens because the amp is overdriven. The fact that it is overdriven compresses the signal, which means that even as the string vibration is reduced (with the concomitant reduction in electrical output of the pickup) the volume stays the same. Proposing to compare tube distortion with a plug in of the same is completely besides the point. A digital plug in is nothing but a digital sampling or synthesis of distortion sound. It is not remotely the same as comparing an overdriven transistor circuit with an overdriven tube circuit. It is like comparing an actual acoustic piano with a digital piano, which is nothing but a digital reproduction of the real thing.

I, frankly, do not understand your whole Deep Purple/Leslie speaker analogy. What you are proposing is absurd and I said nothing of the sort. All I said was that tube amps sound different from solid state amps when overdriven, and used as an example guitar amps, in particular when overdriven. That is all I said and nothing more. My only mention of a Leslie speaker was in response to a separate post, where I stated that a Leslie speaker is as much a musical instrument (or a part of the same) as the Hammond organ that drives it. This, in support of my assertion that a guitar amplifier is not merely a reproducer of the guitar signal, but is a part of the musical instrument itself. As an electric guitarist plays the guitar and the amp, a Hammond organist plays the organ and the Leslie.

Anybody who has played electric guitar (particularly in rock music or fusion) knows this.

Cheers,

Antonio

Did you watch the video about guitar tone?

 

[Crosstalk]

What is it that I’m hearing in my tube preamp and tubed headphone amp that is so romantic, warm, soft around the edges, and smooth, even syrupy sometimes? I’m not talking about hybrid amps or tube buffers. (My headphone amp is an OTL design, my preamp has no transistors in the audio circuit.) Do tubes enhance dynamics? They seem to create a feeling of space and holographic imaging. These qualities make it great for home audio applications. Of course they add distortion but it’s pleasing to the ear. The warm sound of tubes seems perfect for laid back and acoustic music styles like jazz. In my experience, most typical solid state gear can’t perform as well for getting the presentation and emotional impact of music right. Are tubes more musical?

You know what this site deals with. And this post is a bait for just getting attention.

 

[ajramirez]

Are you absolutely sure?:

I thought that the video was quite interesting. I did note, however, that while he does use solid state stomp boxes, there wasn’t a single solid state amp shown in the video.

 

[ajramirez]

Did you watch the video about guitar tone?

I did. Just posted about it. Food for thought. However, I do note he did not show a single solid state amp in the video, only solid state distortion boxes. I can only assume that, as a gigging musician, he opts to haul heavy, expensive and delicate tube amps for no reason, since solid state amps would sound exactly the same…

I do intend to seek out the distortion box he used in the video and probably buy it.

Cheers,

Antonio

 

[SIY]

All I said was that tube amps sound different from solid state amps when overdriven

Well, in the hifi world, unless they are specifically designed to avoid it (which most are not), tube amps suffer from blocking distortion when overloaded, a particularly ugly choking effect. Nothing even vaguely "musical" about it.

 

[Vacceo]

Allow me to provide a rather extreme example (which may or may not be relevant here): The sound of the oboist in an orchestra providing an "A" note to which the other musicians can tune their instruments is "musical," replete with an harmonic spectrum that largely defines the timbre of that instrument. The 440 Hz output of a laboratory signal generator has the same fundamental pitch as that oboe note, but lacking any harmonic content it doesn't sound "musical" when amplified and transduced so as to be audible.

Then you're out of luck, because a tube will distort it.

The job of the amplifier is giving you whatever is on the record, harmonics or not.

 

[ajramirez]

Well, in the hifi world, unless they are specifically designed to avoid it (which most are not), tube amps suffer from blocking distortion when overloaded, a particularly ugly choking effect. Nothing even vaguely "musical" about it.

So, they sound different then?

No blocking distortion in the tube guitar amps i have owned. They all sounded sweet when overdriven. I cannot say the same for the Peavey and Fender solid state amps I had in high school, when I could not afford anything better. Grating and, all around, awful overdriven tone. I have never owned a tube hifi amp, nor do I intend to. Like I said earlier, I prefer my hifi to be, as much as possible, without distortion.

Cheers,

Antonio

 

[SIY]

No blocking distortion in the tube guitar amps i have owned. They all sounded sweet when overdriven.

The design is different than hifi amps, which is the topic of discussion. Don't conflate them, it leads to confusion.

So, they sound different then?

When overdriven, yes. Tube hifi amps get horribly ugly when clipped.

 

[ajramirez]

When overdriven, yes. Tube hifi amps get horribly ugly when clipped.

I do believe you just confirmed my point, sir.

 

[Henry53]

I don't think so. I believe players who insist on using a tube amp do so because it's what they are used to. I prefer a modeler, linear amps, and FRFR boxes. Because convenience. I can get the results I want into headphones, into the DAW, into a Zoom meeting, or into the air at any SPL level. In comparison, tube amps are a gigantic pita.

At the same time I do not at all discount the importance of sticking with what you're used to as a musician. But there's nothing intrinsically "more musical" about the tubes, it's all just effects and different tech for implementing these effects.

What's way more interesting here is how "the sound" of electric guitar, i.e. the collective cultural understanding of what electric guitars sound like, or should sound like, has these technical historical contingencies. And if you're in the amp modelling business, you have to figure out the features of the old tech that are important. For example, some modelers simulate different guitar cable lengths, hahaha.

Well I didn't say a valve guitar amp was more 'musical', however if we believe that an accurate system is better then if valve guitar amps were used to make the music perhaps using valve amps to reproduce it are more accurate.

 

[mhardy6647]

Well I didn't say a valve guitar amp was more 'musical', however if we believe that an accurate system is better then if valve guitar amps were used to make the music perhaps using valve amps to reproduce it are more accurate.

That's sort of like saying that if El Greco had an astigmatism*, then viewers of his art will only truly see it as the artist intended if they, too, have an astigmatism.

________________
* I guess that old story has been debunked -- but it's still a handy rhetorical device.

Art Bites: An Eye Condition Might Explain El Greco’s Stretched Perspective

A theory that El Greco suffered with astigmatism, an eye condition affecting his paintings' perspective, has been debated since 1913.

news.artnet.com

 

[notinuse]

So, they sound different then?

No blocking distortion in the tube guitar amps i have owned. They all sounded sweet when overdriven. I cannot say the same for the Peavey and Fender solid state amps I had in high school, when I could not afford anything better. Grating and, all around, awful overdriven tone. I have never owned a tube hifi amp, nor do I intend to. Like I said earlier, I prefer my hifi to be, as much as possible, without distortion.

Cheers,

Antonio

Audio production is not the same as audio reproduction.

 

[Sal1950]

What is it that I’m hearing in my tube preamp and tubed headphone amp that is so romantic, warm, soft around the edges, and smooth, even syrupy sometimes? I’m not talking about hybrid amps or tube buffers. (My headphone amp is an OTL design, my preamp has no transistors in the audio circuit.) Do tubes enhance dynamics? They seem to create a feeling of space and holographic imaging. These qualities make it great for home audio applications. Of course they add distortion but it’s pleasing to the ear. The warm sound of tubes seems perfect for laid back and acoustic music styles like jazz. In my experience, most typical solid state gear can’t perform as well for getting the presentation and emotional impact of music right. Are tubes more musical?

Only if you find the sound of distortion more "musical" than the sound of the actual musical instruments.
Personally I find the an accurate reproduction of the musical event much more pleasing.

 

[Multicore]

if we believe that an accurate system is better then if valve guitar amps were used to make the music perhaps using valve amps to reproduce it are more accurate.

Wat?

 

[Multicore]

Maybe Mike Oldfield can "chime" in here?

Haha. That's funny. I used to live next door to him in Denham, Bucks.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I did. Just posted about it. Food for thought. However, I do note he did not show a single solid state amp in the video, only solid state distortion boxes. I can only assume that, as a gigging musician, he opts to haul heavy, expensive and delicate tube amps for no reason, since solid state amps would sound exactly the same…

I do intend to seek out the distortion box he used in the video and probably buy it.

Cheers,

Antonio

Actually he did use solid state. His tackle box emulation of eq and distortion fed a clean solid state amp. No tubes in the whole chain at that point.

 

[Multicore]

What does musical even mean?

I've said above in this thread that it has to do with intentionality. Music serves social purposes for humans. Sounds and other gestures can be musical if they are intended for these social purposes.

 

[Multicore]

Than why do a lot of people say tube or vinyl distortion is more musical?

Because they like the mysterious, ultimately impenetrable implications of these words.