Are tubes more musical?

[wadude]

True enough, if we use the term "music" as it is traditionally used. That's why I wrote that a musical instrument is a technical device for creating sound/music. As far as I know this is how "musical instrument" is usually defined (ref. Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia etc...). Nowadays, a computer running a suitable AI software and connected to a suitable electronic musical instrument could be said as being capable of making music.

A Theremin is a musical instrument, but a tube inside the Theremin is not. To create a sound with that tube, One has to take it away from the Theremin and use it in a "MattHooper-instrument".

A slight change then: Tubas don’t make music, people make music…with tubas.

As for AI, since the software itself is probably not inspired by a Muse, the sounds created might be come to be considered something other than music. I wonder if our human sensitivity to music will evolve enough to immediately recognize the difference? Interactions with AI receptionists on the phone and using Siri don’t feel human, but they are effective ways to handle those types of transactions.

One early example of mechanically generated music is Brian Eno’s, Discreet Music (1975), although he did create the initial motifs on tape and then let them loop.

 

[mhardy6647]

So now the question is : Which OS is more "musical" : Windows, Linux or iOS?
I hear that vintage ones like UNIX and DOS are "warmer", almost analogue...

CP/M is the sine qua non for listening to the oldies.

 

[Cbdb2]

Tubes do NOT create the sound in Theremins and transistors do not create the sound in synthesizers. Nobody claimed that the sound is coming from fingers. Look at the picture attached in my post. To create a sound You need to somehow create a waveform. In Theremin the waveform is created with oscillators. Tubes are used as components in amplifying the manipulated waveform that is then fed to a speaker.

And oscillators are made from tubes and transistors, try making one without, so tubes and transistors do make sound.

 

[mhardy6647]

And oscillators are made from tubes and transistors, try making one without, so tubes and transistors do make sound.

... and (output) transformer laminations can sing, as well.
(EDIT: In fairness, I guess singing PTs in switch mode powersupplies are somewhat notorious for singing as well)

Not that many of y'all ever encountered output transformers in your young lives. Especially OPTs with laminated cores.
Y'all whippersnappers.

 

[Multicore]

A tuba is a device that can create a sounds we humans call music. A tube can be used as a component of several of the four technology categories above, but while it can modify a sound signal, it can not create a sound as such, and therefore I would not say that it is a musical instrument. OK - a tube can create a sound, if I bang it against a table, but if that is enough to classify something as a musical instrument, then just about anything qualifies as such.

A tuba can be an instrument for carrying water. And as you say electronic vacuum tubes can make serviceable percussion instrument. The presence of absence of music is inextricably tied up with the intent of the human activity, not so much in the objects used in making music. A tap dancer's feet can seem very musical but feet are more commonly deployed in service of non-musical activities. I think your approach of categorizing objects as musical or not in themselves doesn't really help us address the question.

However I think a different theoretical philosophical frame might be useful. Since the music is in the intentional social activity that we assume is somehow partly captured in the recording, how can an amplifier that is colored, or noisy, or non-linear, or compressing etc. deliver more music than the theoretically transparent one, i.e. the one that doesn't alter the input signal? In other words, how do you get more music out than you put in?

This is not the same as asking about pleasing or preferable sounds. My question is specifically about use of the word "musical" to describe audio gear.

 

[JiiPee]

And oscillators are made from tubes and transistors, try making one without, so tubes and transistors do make sound.

Good grief... First of all, a very common type of oscillator is a crystal oscillator, so getting an oscillator without having to use tubes or transistors does not take much of trying.

Second, an oscillating circuit can be built with a tube, or a transistor, connected to a feedback circuit, but then the oscillator is the created circuit, not the tube, or transistor alone.

Once more (and I promise this is the last time), a tube, or a transistor can be used as a component in a musical instrument, but they are not musical instruments per se, at least unless we use them as "MattHooper-instrument". Is the sound produced by a vacuum tube when one hits it with a stick enough to qualify it as a musical instrument? That is a question I don't feel that I'm qualified to answer.

 

[mhardy6647]

On the other hand, one may use code alone to create music -- perhaps depending upon one's definition of music.

Wobbulator : Recreating the sounds of the BBC Radiophonic Workshop

 

[ajramirez]

Often claimed, never actually demonstrated. See, for example, our futile attempt in another thread to get the principal of Atmasphere to do a properly controlled test.

Have you ever wondered why most electric guitar players insist on using tube amps? As a player, I can assure you it is precisely because of how nice a slightly or heavily overdriven tube amp sounds. All that rich sustain you hear in a soaring guitar solo is nothing but tube distortion. Solid state amps are notoriously poor at this (leaving aside modeling amps, which are nothing but digital simulations of the real thing). Mind you, a guitar amp is not meant to merely amplify the signal from the guitar. Quite to the contrary, it is a musical instrument in itself and a sound shaper. The goal is not the same as a high fidelity amp, but it is obvious to any guitar player that tubes and solid state do not sound the same.

Cheers,

Antonio

 

[ajramirez]

Once more (and I promise this is the last time), a tube, or a transistor can be used as a component in a musical instrument, but they are not musical instruments per se, at least unless we use them as "MattHooper-instrument". Is the sound produced by a vacuum tube when one hits it with a stick enough to qualify it as a musical instrument? That is a question I don't feel that I'm qualified to answer.

A tube, by itself, may not be a musical instrument but a tube amp is as much a musical instrument as an electric guitar is.

 

[JiiPee]

A tube, by itself, may not be a musical instrument but a tube amp is as much a musical instrument as an electric guitar is.

Electric guitar connected to a tube amplifier and a speaker is a musical instrument. Without a source (the electric guitar) and a transducer (the speaker), You have to hit the tube amplifier with something to use it as something that could maybe be called as a percussion instrument.

 

[ajramirez]

Electric guitar connected to a tube amplifier and a speaker is a musical instrument. Without a source (the electric guitar) and a transducer (the speaker), You have to hit the tube amplifier with something to use it as something that could maybe be called as a percussion instrument.

Sure. Just like a pipe organ and its console or a Hammond B3 and its Leslie…

 

[JiiPee]

On the other hand, one may use code alone to create music -- perhaps depending upon one's definition of music.

Wobbulator : Recreating the sounds of the BBC Radiophonic Workshop

View attachment 400061

The sound Your ears detect is actually a pressure Wave. Don't You think the code might need some hardware assistance to create physical pressure waves?

 

[SIY]

Have you ever wondered why most electric guitar players insist on using tube amps?

No, I haven't wondered, since I am a guitar player and have built a few guitar amps.

But I also know the difference in the applications and don't conflate the two.

 

[ajramirez]

No, I haven't wondered, since I am a guitar player and have built a few guitar amps.

But I also know the difference in the applications and don't conflate the two.

The point I was trying to make is that solid state and tube amplifiers do sound different. It is most obvious in instrument amplifiers. No need for blind testing to prove the point.

Mind you, my experience with tube instrument amplifiers is what keeps me from even considering any tube hi-fi gear. I do not need sweet sounding distortion in my high fidelity amplifier. I much prefer inaudible distortion. Additionally, keeping my guitar amps (Mesa Boogie) in working order, was a chore in itself. I also do not want to be constantly wondering if tubes need replacement.

Have the guitar amps you have built been tube or solid state designs?

Cheers,

Antonio

 

[SIY]

The point I was trying to make is that solid state and tube amplifiers do sound different.

In hifi? No. Good tube amps sound just like good solid state amps. No-one claiming magical differences (beyond frequency response) has ever demonstrated the contrary.

Lousy tube amps and lousy solid state amps just sound lousy, each one in its own way, no particular correlation to the active device with the exception of microphonics.

 

[MattHooper]

Since the music is in the intentional social activity that we assume is somehow partly captured in the recording, how can an amplifier that is colored, or noisy, or non-linear, or compressing etc. deliver more music than the theoretically transparent one, i.e. the one that doesn't alter the input signal? In other words, how do you get more music out than you put in?

This is not the same as asking about pleasing or preferable sounds. My question is specifically about use of the word "musical" to describe audio gear.

Then you were using the term “ musical” in a way no audiophile or reviewer I’ve ever seen uses the term, so I think your question is going to be fruitless as posed.

But if you really want to understand what the term often means when audiophiles use it, I think you’ll find A decent summary in my earlier post here

 

[wadude]

Even solid state musical instrument amps have come a long way in recent years. I have guitar playing buddies whom I never would have dreamed of switching to solid state amps doing just that. From vintage Fender Deluxe and Princeton amps, serious, mature, professional jazz and blues guys, switching to Quilters. To quote one, “I’ll probably never own another Fender.” I was floored, but they do sound excellent.

 

[pkane]

Posting original and distorted versions of "Some Animals" and "Sandino" tracks, upsampled to 96k using Audacity.

The same DISTORT transfer function as before (GFA-565 bridged simulation from here) was applied to one of the tracks, A or B. You decide which one is which, and which one sounds brighter than the other in an ABX test.

Files included (shared under fair use doctrine):

01 Some Animals-A.wav
01 Some Animals-B.wav
04 Sandino-A.wav
04 Sandino-B.wav

@atmasphere, I believe you asked for these tracks, and @SIY provided the originals. This is a large zip file (1.2GB). The download link will stay around for 7 days, so please download it before it expires: https://we.tl/t-WWtHCXqxaR

 

[Henry53]

The ”human ear”? Please specify whose human ear you are talking about.

Well mine and many friends. It sort of like saying boiled eggs taste better than scrambled. Perhaps they do, to some people.

 

[SIY]

Posting original and distorted versions of "Some Animals" and "Sandino" tracks, upsampled to 96k using Audacity.

The same DISTORT transfer function as before (GFA-565 bridged simulation from here) was applied to one of the tracks, A or B. You decide which one is which, and which one sounds brighter than the other in an ABX test.

Files included (shared under fair use doctrine):

01 Some Animals-A.wav
01 Some Animals-B.wav
04 Sandino-A.wav
04 Sandino-B.wav

@atmasphere, I believe you asked for these tracks, and @SIY provided the originals. This is a large zip file (1.2GB). The download link will stay around for 7 days, so please download it before it expires: https://we.tl/t-WWtHCXqxaR

@atmasphere Have you downloaded the files that @pkane prepared for you?

Obviously, anyone else is welcome to give those a try.